Comics are awesome.

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Dominic
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Dominic »

"Hey, is this album about overcoming past failures?" and I could say, "You know, I didn't originally intend for that, but now that I reread it all with that in mind, it makes a lot of sense. I approve."
On the other hand, you wrote and edited those songs. And, you (being a mature adult) would have some idea of your own frame of mind as well as the words you are using when you are writing.

Dom, sometimes we need to just turn the brain off and be "entertained".
That is well and good. Wrestling tends to not have much in the way of great subtext either, and pro-wrestling is my favorite form of non-printed entertainment. But, even then, concept based characters tend to be more entertaining, (hence my love of the more colorful heels).

What I am arguing against is the idea that the audience can assign meaning that deviates from the author's intent.

To use wrestling as an example, one of my favorite heels is being rebranded as a face. (I actually talk to him before or after shows on occassion, he is a genuinely nice guy.) This kind of irks me because, to put it bluntly, he is a great heel. But, he has the right to rebrand himself. I am not going to say that "the Biggest of Them All" was always a hero at heart. That would be absurd. Benny Juxx just decided that it would be a better career move to be a face. (And, on a personal level, I hope it works for him, as much as I prefer the old character.)


Dom
-will pitch a fit if J-Busta ever turns face.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:That is actually getting into the higher concepts of free-will and moral agency. I would argue that even
if one has a sub-concious motive, their basic day to day decisions are based on their own choice and free will.
I don't see what you're trying to argue there Dom. The subconscious is always there, even in basic day-to-day decisions.
The point is that any and all IP only exists as the writer intends for it to.
Now you're trying to mince words. It exists because the author wrote it. Intent is something else.
The band admits that the song sucks. It does not do what they wanted it to do. Anyone who says the song is good is *wrong*. The people responsible for "Fight For Your Right to Party" say it is a bad song.
What's "good" or "bad" is a matter of personal taste and is a separate issue from the band saying it sucks because it doesn't send the message they wanted it to.
The author's job is to be clear in what they say. The audience's job is to read/listen/watch maturely.

If the readers are deviating from the author's intent, they are either making an honest mistake, or they are feeding their own needs rather than understanding something.
You're avoiding the issue and not answering the question.
How can the audience find something that is not there? That is the question I am have been asking for the last 3 posts.
You've been ignoring the answers. You keep claiming there is nothing the author doesn't intend, but you're ignoring plenty of legitimate literary theories that state otherwise.
I was using Marxism as an example of soemthing in Political Philosophy that I disagreed with, yet did not cause me to disregard all of Political Philosophy/Science as a discipline.
That doesn't answer the question.
Marvel cleared Singer to write it. That makes it legitimate.
Fine, just ignore the point. It's clear to me at this point you made up your mind long before this debate ever began and you stubbornly refuse to even acknowledge legitimate academia that doesn't coincide with your own personal beliefs on the matter.
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Shockwave
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:What I am arguing against is the idea that the audience can assign meaning that deviates from the author's intent.
They can if the author says it's valid. It's entirely up to the author and no one else to make that determination.
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Dominic
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Dominic »

I don't see what you're trying to argue there Dom. The subconscious is always there, even in basic day-to-day decisions.
How much of our actions is determined by free will, and how much by our sub-concious? I would argue that something as deliberative as writing would be more decision based, rather than impulse based. The more we think and deliberate on something, the more aware we should be about what we are doing. This includes writing.
They can if the author says it's valid. It's entirely up to the author and no one else to make that determination.
*Only* if the author clears it. And, again, it is suspect if the author's intent is that fluid to begin with. If the author's intent is that mercurial, how trustworthy are they?

Now you're trying to mince words. It exists because the author wrote it. Intent is something else.
Uh, the writer produces something because the *intend* to produce something.
What's "good" or "bad" is a matter of personal taste and is a separate issue from the band saying it sucks because it doesn't send the message they wanted it to.
The person who wrote something, be it a speech, a book, a song, whatever, has every right to call it "good" or "bad" based on how well it does what they wanted it to do. The Beastie Boys knew what they wanted to say with "Fight For Your Right To Party", and have decided that the song does not convey their intended meaning well. Hence, it is a bad song by virtue of not conveying that meaning. Their standard is completely objecive. They know what the song should do, and can compare their ideal results to what the song actually did.

The people who are misreading the song, while knowing its original intent, are being self-indulgent pricks.


You've been ignoring the answers. You keep claiming there is nothing the author doesn't intend, but you're ignoring plenty of legitimate literary theories that state otherwise.

[\quote]

I question the legitimacy of most literary theory.

It is the academic equivalent of snake-oil and black helicopter conspiracy theory.

At a basic level, it provides jobs by creating the illusion of productivity for people
who have degrees in a subject that has only limited real use. You know what, if I could
have stomached it, I would have gotten the Master's. And, yeah, I probably would have taught
theory. Of course, that would mean that I would be perpetuating, if not necessarily living,
a lie.


Here is an analogy:

If I am standing in front of the doorway to a pitch black room,
I might speculate about what is in that room. My speculation could be based on any
number of things. I may be familiar with the general plan for the building, and have
reason to believe it is an HVAC room. Perhaps, it might be a bathroom.

It would be blatantly absurd for me to say "I feel that this room has candy inside",
unless of course I had some actual reason to think that there might well be candy in the
room.

And, it would be impossible for me to find anything in that room that was not there,
regardless of how hard I looked. No matter fervently I believe the room is a bathroom,
I am only going to find a toilet or sink in the room if there in fact is a toilet or sink
in the room. I will only find candy if there is candy.

I may even have every reason to believe that there is candy or a toilet, (perhaps a candied
toilet), in the room. But, if there is neither a toilet nor candy in the room, my theory
wrong.

Obviously, I could have avoided much embarassment by either turning on a light or
getting a flashlight before stumbling around in a darkened room looking for sweets
and potties. If there is no light source available, they I ultimately would have to
conclude that I do not know what is in the room. If somebody shows me a picture of the
room, taken with the lights on, I can use that as further basis for speculation.

At no point would any reasonable person say that what is in the room is at all contingent
on what I would like to find in the room. I might have to poop something awful, possibly
while craving a Snickers. But, I will only find a Snickers if there is actually a
Snickers to find. It is impossible for me, or anyone, to actually find something that
is not there. Even if I have resonable expectation of finding a place of sweet release,
expectations do not lead to actuality.


Much of Literary theory effectively says that there is a toilet and bags candy in that
room because I want that to be the case, possibly even after the light has been turned on and the the room
has been revealed to be loaded with cardboard boxes...used to ship vegetables.




Dom
-but writing is magical so it does not matter.
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Shockwave
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Shockwave »

So what happens if you walk into the room with a bag of candy? Suddenly there's candy in there that wasn't there before :P
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Dominic
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Dominic »

..and then saying the candy was there the whole time.
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Onslaught Six
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Onslaught Six »

Dominic wrote:Uh, the writer produces something because the *intend* to produce something.
No. The writer produces something because he has to get paid.
The people who are misreading the song, while knowing its original intent, are being self-indulgent pricks.
I honestly think you're maybe taking it a little too far. Simply thinking the phrase "You've gotta fight for your right to party," is pretty awesome (and that that riff and solo are damn tasty) doesn't really make one a self-indulgent prick, do they? I mean, alright, maybe it doesn't convey the message they wanted properly. But regardless of the intent, they *did* make something that works as a kickass standard rock song, and that matters to me far more than anything else, when it comes to most of my tunage.

Then again, I never claimed to be at Dom's level of my-entertainment-needs-to-make-me-think. I argued against Wolverine Fights Magneto but I'm looking at getting a DBZ game because, damn it, I like DBZ.
And, it would be impossible for me to find anything in that room that was not there,
regardless of how hard I looked. No matter fervently I believe the room is a bathroom,
I am only going to find a toilet or sink in the room if there in fact is a toilet or sink
in the room. I will only find candy if there is candy.
And effectively, what ShockTrek and I are arguing is that the person who built the room accidentally had candy in their pockets and left some there. Or perhaps, a mysterious object that, without knowledge of the person who built the room, may or may not be candy.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
Image
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Dominic
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Dominic »

That would be a shoddily designed room then.


No. The writer produces something because he has to get paid.
\

Well, it is either that or teach.
I mean, alright, maybe it doesn't convey the message they wanted properly. But regardless of the intent, they *did* make something that works as a kickass standard rock song, and that matters to me far more than anything else, when it comes to most of my tunage.
The problem with FFYRTP is that it does not, for one reason or another, convey the intended idea. Thus, it fails. If somebody uses that song as an anthem for a mindset that they know the Beastie Boys were writing *against* is being a prick.


Dom
-wondering how obvious the parody was.
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Shockwave
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:..and then saying the candy was there the whole time.
Shit. I hadn't even thought of that :lol:
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Shockwave
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Re: Comics are awesome.

Post by Shockwave »

Onslaught Six wrote:And effectively, what ShockTrek and I are arguing is that the person who built the room accidentally had candy in their pockets and left some there. Or perhaps, a mysterious object that, without knowledge of the person who built the room, may or may not be candy.
Double shit. I hadn't thought of this either.

Shockwave
-Now I'm hungry for candy.
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