Comics are awesome.

[Sparky Prime]

Would that be Spider-Girl, or is this a second daughter?

Mephisto said she was a "possibility yet to come" suggesting she was a second daughter who hadn't been born yet.

[138 Scourge]

Huh. Interesting. Of course, nothing saying she wouldn't show up eventually. I mean, just because they didn't get married before, doesn't mean they wouldn't have some sort of relationship in the future.

Yo Spark, do you read the Spider-Girl comics? I've flipped through a couple, but damned if I can recall if May had any siblings. Brother named Ben, maybe? I know it's not even connected to the 616 anymore, but it'd be neat if there'd been some sort of tie in there. Or not, I dunno.

EDIT: Or then again, I could look in the Wikipedia. According to that, Baby May died, and Mephisto was disguised as her. Of course, that's just the Wiki, but still. It also says that according to Quesada, the pregnancy never happened in the 616.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that "OMD" is right up there with the "Five Years Later" Legion of Superheroes retcon when they had to get rid of Superboy in terms of "crazy-ass retcons".

[Sparky Prime]

Yo Spark, do you read the Spider-Girl comics? I've flipped through a couple, but damned if I can recall if May had any siblings. Brother named Ben, maybe? I know it's not even connected to the 616 anymore, but it'd be neat if there'd been some sort of tie in there. Or not, I dunno.

Yeah, I've gotten a few issues of Spider-Girl. She does have a baby brother named Ben. In a way, she has a half brother, because Darkdevil (Reilly Tyne) is the son of Ben Reilly. And there is also a clone (or might be the original, yeah they did that again) of May who was genetically re-engineered to be a symbiote hybrid and has taken the name April Parker (Mayhem while in costume) I guess could almost be called a sister to May.

Anyway, Spider-Girl started with a "What-if" story in which Peter got their baby back rather than Aunt May at the end of the "Clone Saga". As such, it takes place in an alternate universe to the 616 universe.

EDIT: Or then again, I could look in the Wikipedia. According to that, Baby May died, and Mephisto was disguised as her. Of course, that's just the Wiki, but still. It also says that according to Quesada, the pregnancy never happened in the 616.

Yeah, that wiki article isn't accurate. The girl Mephisto showed to Peter and MJ was only said to be a child they would never have with their marriage gone. Given the context of "yet to happen", it wasn't May.

The the last bit of canon evidence as to the fate of baby May in 616 was in issue #9 of "Marvel Knights Spider-Man", in which Mac Gargan says to Spider-Man (while talking about Norman Osborn): "He kills your unborn child, you kill his son". As such, it's generally considered that the baby was stillborn as a result of Norman having Mary Jane poisoned during her pregnancy in the "Clone Saga". That pregnancy is still canon unless they do a story that actually says otherwise.

[Shockwave]

I know I've asked this before, but can't remember the answer, what's the "616" universe? Is that just what Marvel is calling it's main universe and if so, how did it come to be known as such?

[andersonh1]

JSA: Darkness Falls

The second collected JSA volume contains what were originally issues 6 through 15 of the series for $20. That’s a decent bargain. However despite the overarching title, there are actually four story arcs contained within the trade, and sadly the one that interests me the most has the least emotional and dramatic impact.

The first chapter is a standalone story. The Justice Society announces their re-formation and opens their headquarters as a museum to the public at the same time. Naturally a super-villain decides to attack the group at exactly that moment. In this case, the villain in question is Black Adam, Captain Marvel’s arch-enemy, and he’s enough of a powerhouse to make short work of the team. His defeat is achieved through the means of time travel, believe it or not. Yes, Doctor Fate’s method of stopping him is creative, but it’s also a lot more complicated than it had to be. I’m hoping this is setup for later storylines, because it’s pretty boilerplate storytelling when taken at face value.

The second storyline concerns Alan Scott’s estranged son Obsidian, who has gone bad and attempts to plunge the entire world into darkness due to the way his powers work. He’s been partially corrupted by old JSA enemy Ian Karkull who was at one time inadvertently responsible for the team’s slowed aging. Black Canary and a new Dr. Mid-Nite help to free the team, while Alan Scott actually uses his powers to their full potential for once to defeat his son. I’m often disappointed by how easily the original Green Lantern goes down in a fight, or how little he sometimes accomplishes when he ought to be the powerhouse of the group, but here he goes all out and shows what he’s capable of.

The third and fourth storylines are somewhat interconnected. The team splits in two with one half going to take on Kobra and rescue a captured super-hero while the other half goes after Extant, the villain who caused so much trouble during Zero Hour. This is the story I referred to in the first paragraph that disappointed me. The loss of half the original team to death thanks to Extant is certainly mentioned, but the rematch never feels as dangerous or emotionally taxing for the team as it should logically be. All the emotion comes from Atom-Smasher, whose mother is killed in a plane crash as Kobra tests his new weapon and makes his threats to the world. Although in an interesting move, particularly for the old fashioned "we don't kill" JSA, Atom-Smasher arranges for Extant to switch places with his mom at the last minute, meaning Extant is killed in the plane crash.

The volume ends with several team members leaving for one reason or another. Jack Knight (Starman) quits. I think his series had ended about this time and the character Ted Knight had died. The android Hourman quits as well. It feels like a transitional point for the team, and a natural place to end this trade paperback.

[Dominic]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that "OMD" is right up there with the "Five Years Later" Legion of Superheroes retcon when they had to get rid of Superboy in terms of "crazy-ass retcons".

Do we know what Byrne thought about this? I am curious.

Yeah, I've gotten a few issues of Spider-Girl. She does have a baby brother named Ben. In a way, she has a half brother, because Darkdevil (Reilly Tyne) is the son of Ben Reilly. And there is also a clone (or might be the original, yeah they did that again) of May who was genetically re-engineered to be a symbiote hybrid and has taken the name April Parker (Mayhem while in costume) I guess could almost be called a sister to May.

Yup, one of several tacit admissions by DeFalco that they blew it in the 90s. Damn if Spider-girl is not a passable comic though. I would not commit to buying it regularly. But, it is worth picking up on occasion. The clone-girl question was handled much better. Rather than everyone (characters and fans) getting all bent out of shape and whiny, they just said that the ones living in one place were who they were living as, end of story.

As such, it's generally considered that the baby was stillborn as a result of Norman having Mary Jane poisoned during her pregnancy in the "Clone Saga". That pregnancy is still canon unless they do a story that actually says otherwise.

Editorial fiat could also nullify the pregnancy, regardless of on-page story.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not show a nurse making off with the kid in the old comics, or am I conflating M2 history here?

I know I've asked this before, but can't remember the answer, what's the "616" universe? Is that just what Marvel is calling it's main universe and if so, how did it come to be known as such?

616 is Marvel's main time-line. The number comes from their mailing address. (I forget the street. But, they are building/lot 616. I think that DC is 666 on the same street.)


Dom
-has to admit that Sipher's method with the TF multiverse is actually pretty good.

[Sparky Prime]

Editorial fiat could also nullify the pregnancy, regardless of on-page story.

The problem with that is Editorial opinion can change whenever they get a new Editor-in-Chief. As such, it isn't really canon unless they establish it within the the context of the comics story.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not show a nurse making off with the kid in the old comics, or am I conflating M2 history here?

Yeah, it was always a part of the story that the nurse kidnapped the baby for Osborn. DeFalco had planned to wrap that up, but he was taken off the book before he could do it, and baby plot was dropped/forgotten. Though, like I said before, there was one in-canon reference made to suggest the baby died in the 616 universe.

I know I've asked this before, but can't remember the answer, what's the "616" universe? Is that just what Marvel is calling it's main universe and if so, how did it come to be known as such?

616 is Marvel's main time-line. The number comes from their mailing address. (I forget the street. But, they are building/lot 616. I think that DC is 666 on the same street.)

It wasn't their mailing address, they've never had an office with a 616 (according to wiki at least). The story I've always heard is that the number 616 was chosen at random with no significance attributed to it at all, picking a high number because DC was using low numbers for their multiverse.

[138 Scourge]

One theory on the "616" that had me going for a minute was that the number had to do with the publication date that each universe appeared in. So, say, if Fantastic Four #1 came out in June of 1961...

I don't think that holds up, though. For one thing, I'm not sure if FF #1 was published in June of '61, and even if it was, there's plenty of stories that predate it that are set in the same universe. Admittedly, they're sort of retroactively set in that same universe, but nonetheless.

But the main reason it's the "616"? Alan Moore said so.

Atom-Smasher arranges for Extant to switch places with his mom at the last minute, meaning Extant is killed in the plane crash.

Now, I'm sure that makes more sense in context, but on it's own that just seems odd. Mega-powered cosmic villain, had at least Hawk and Waverider's powers, somehow you'd think he'd survive a plane crash. Was he depowered at this point or something?

Also, Extant was still Hank Hall, right?

r

[Dominic]

Really? I could have sworn I heard that 616 was a street address Marvel used. Well, either way, we have an explanation, and I stand corrected. (I am going to go pull some of my old comics and double check over the weekend all the same.)

Actually, according to wikipedia, 616 is also a recalculated number of the beast. Marvel needs to work that into an issue of "X-Men". Hank McCoy gets a cell phone....

The problem with that is Editorial opinion can change whenever they get a new Editor-in-Chief. As such, it isn't really canon unless they establish it within the the context of the comics story.

On the other hand, the stories are pretty fluid. (Remember when Hawk was Extant/Monarch?) Editorial fiat eliminates the middle-man and a tedious "this is what really happened" story that likely would read like a bad fanfic.


Dom
-damned wiki traps.....

[Sparky Prime]

On the other hand, the stories are pretty fluid. (Remember when Hawk was Extant/Monarch?) Editorial fiat eliminates the middle-man and a tedious "this is what really happened" story that likely would read like a bad fanfic.

Granted, the stories can always get retconned, but I wouldn't call them fluid. It's the stories that establish the canon. Just because Editorial says something doesn't necessarily make it true for the story until there is something in the story itself to support it. Now if we were talking about a story with only single author behind it... then I could see their fiat being taken as canon if it wasn't in the story, because they are the only mind behind it. But that just doesn't work in my view with comics given they have many different creative teams (including Editorial) over the years whose opinions of the stories often clash with each other.