Comics are awesome.

[Sparky Prime]

I have seen and heard good things about post OMD "Spiderman". I am not saying I like it. But, somebody does.

I don't doubt that. But the fact remains the title was stronger before OMD.

Now see, that seems a lot more like an opinion than a fact from where I'm sitting. Just sayin'.

Well then it seems to me that you skipped the post where I explained sales for post-OMD ASM have dropped considerably compared to where the title was before OMD, as well as that the buzz/critical reception I've seen has been mostly lackluster. Just sayin', these are verifiable facts you can check out for yourself.

But then again, Peter wasn't always the brightest kid in the relationship department.

True enough, but Peter was completely in love with Gwen. In many ways, he still is. Even so, he'd probably go talk to Aunt May about it who'd tell him to do right by Gwen anyway.

Stupid pregnant Gwen storyline. Man, "deal with the devil" is positively brilliant compared to "Gwen Stacy knocked up by Osborn".

I dunno about that, both of them I'd have to say are the worst Spider-Man stories to date. I have a hard time classifying one as worst than the other...

[Shockwave]

I still think it's hilarious that Aunt May was one of Galactus' heralds at one point.

[Dominic]

I don't doubt that. But the fact remains the title was stronger before OMD.

Large chunks of the JMS run were panned. This is the guy who gave us the Goblin-bastards, Spider-totems and.....

Part of me thinks that OMD might have been worth it to get away from that. But, yeah, OMD was a dodgy idea handled badly. For all of our back and forth, neither of us can say what the hell is going on with the Spider-books beyond editorial direction.

Well then it seems to me that you skipped the post where I explained sales for post-OMD ASM have dropped considerably compared to where the title was before OMD, as well as that the buzz/critical reception I've seen has been mostly lackluster. Just sayin', these are verifiable facts you can check out for yourself.

Sales are one thing. And they are nicely measurable. But, given the amount of griping during the JMS run, I get the impression that many people were reading out of ritual, and OMD was just "it" for them. Yeah, sales were higher, but so was the readership misery index.

I'm not saying anything like that. Just that the story would have been handled differently had the two not been married at the time.

How so? They were in a long term relationship, and MJ got pregnant. Peter was going to stick around, *and* seriously considered giving up being Spiderman.

Maybe it is the circles we travel in, but I know fewer married parents than married. And, some of the married ones started off unmarried.

This was a drastically different situation. For starters, Peter didn't even know Gwen was pregnant until years after the fact because she had kept it secret from him. Had Peter known about it, do you really think things would have played out exactly the same? I have no doubt Peter would have married Gwen in a heartbeat had he known she was pregnant with his kids (or anyone else for that matter, he loved her that much).

Was it really so different. Peter clearly could not rule out, (until given evidence), that they were his kids. Proving that he had acted "irresponsibly" (webbing up Gwen) at least once. Dumb friggin' move. A rushed marriage would not be responsible.

The result was a terrible turn for Gwen Stacy, who wasn't that sort of girl until that story changed things.

A friend of mine recently read the old issues, (in compilation form), and his impression is that Gwen was exactly that sort of girl as much as they could write her as such at the time. There was a fair amount of strongly implied bed hopping going on. Norman could conceivably, (heh, get it?), blamed Harry for the kids. So, while I think it was idiotic for JMS to drag up a character that had been dead for ~25 years at the time, it was not wholly inconsistent with previous characterization.

I dunno about that, both of them I'd have to say are the worst Spider-Man stories to date. I have a hard time classifying one as worst than the other...

You are totally forgetting the 90s here Sparky. But, yeah, any of them are real contenders for the dubious honor of "worst Spider-Man run ever.


Dom
-so, Dibny or Stacy, who was ruined more comprehensively?

[andersonh1]

Brightest Day #4

It finally feels like we got some story movement, and revisited some characters not seen since the first issue. Half of Firestorm is having flashbacks to his time as a Black Lantern. And a random new water-based villain turns up.

I’ve read complaints that nothing seems to be happening in this series, but that’s not actually true. Plenty of things happen, but there are so many characters vying for story space that it takes a number of issues to get through what might otherwise be a single issue story. Case in point: Hawkman and Hawkgirl have been chasing an enemy who has been digging up all their old bones, and has used those bones to form a gate to somewhere. It took four issues to get to this point, and only a few pages are devoted to this plot in issue #4. So we don’t really learn all that much more here. And I think that may be the problem… stories start to gather momentum, and then they’re on hold until the next issue comes out. That’s a flaw of the format, and there’s really no way around it. I suspect the collected storyline will be easier to follow once Brightest Day hits the trade paperback format.

Deadman is pulled by the white ring to the home of Hawk and Dove, and like the Anti-Monitor last issue, these two can see him and interact with him. I have to say that the white ring is beginning to look like the greatest and most powerful plot device ever, and it’s bothering me. The thing is capable of independent thought, self-determination, and it can not only keep Boston Brand invisible while taking him anywhere it wants to go, but it can drag him across the universe and into the Anti-Monitor’s residence, wherever that is. In other words, it’s an all-purpose plot device and seems almost unlimited in what it can do. There needs to be a good explanation for this.

It feels like some of the story strands are starting to tie together here, particularly with three of the resurrected (Hawk, Dove and Deadman) meeting to discuss recent events. The Hawks are close behind Hath-Set, and it appears that Firestorm is not as free from the effects of being a Black Lantern as he might have thought.

[Sparky Prime]

Large chunks of the JMS run were panned. This is the guy who gave us the Goblin-bastards, Spider-totems and.....

There were 3 stories panned, "Sin's Past", "The Other" and "One More Day". All of which I'd point out (again) were heavy on Editorial involvement, to the point JMS actually wanted his name taken off of the last issue of OMD because it really wasn't his story. None of those stories played out as JMS would have liked.

For all of our back and forth, neither of us can say what the hell is going on with the Spider-books beyond editorial direction.

That's not entirely true. JMS had a statement sometime after OMD came out in which he revealed some of the things that had been going on behind the scenes. He didn't go into much detail about everything of course, but he did want people to know he wasn't happy with several decisions Editorial made during his run on ASM.

Sales are one thing. And they are nicely measurable. But, given the amount of griping during the JMS run, I get the impression that many people were reading out of ritual, and OMD was just "it" for them. Yeah, sales were higher, but so was the readership misery index.

While I'd agree that for some fans OMD was probably the 'final straw', I think you're overestimating the level of griping during JMS run. Sure, there were a couple terrible stories, but most of his run was actually quite good. The majority of reactions I've seen for people dropping ASM have been because of OMD specifically, for what it did to the character and continuity.

How so? They were in a long term relationship, and MJ got pregnant. Peter was going to stick around, *and* seriously considered giving up being Spiderman.

Maybe it is the circles we travel in, but I know fewer married parents than married. And, some of the married ones started off unmarried.

Peter actually *did* give up being Spider-Man for a while, with Ben Reilly there to take over for him. His intention (being a married man with a pregnant wife) was to retire from costumed life, settle down and raise his family. Having the marriage magically erased, I just see this playing out a little differently. Maybe it's more of a character thing that you're just not seeing.

And I don't really see what married/unmarried parents in your own experience has to do with anything. You have to think of this in terms of these characters in the context of this story.

Was it really so different. Peter clearly could not rule out, (until given evidence), that they were his kids. Proving that he had acted "irresponsibly" (webbing up Gwen) at least once. Dumb friggin' move. A rushed marriage would not be responsible.

Yes, it really was so different. A marriage wouldn't have been rushed as that's where the couple were headed already. Gwen had actually been hoping Peter would propose to her not long after her father died, yet before she left to live in London (which is when the whole pregnancy thing took place). Peter even went to London to propose but had to leave with out seeing her when he was forced to go into action as Spider-Man. When Gwen returned, Peter hinted that he was planning on proposing, but didn't get the chance before she was killed. Had he known about the pregnancy, I'm sure that would have changed all that.

A friend of mine recently read the old issues, (in compilation form), and his impression is that Gwen was exactly that sort of girl as much as they could write her as such at the time. There was a fair amount of strongly implied bed hopping going on. Norman could conceivably, (heh, get it?), blamed Harry for the kids. So, while I think it was idiotic for JMS to drag up a character that had been dead for ~25 years at the time, it was not wholly inconsistent with previous characterization.

I have to say your friend must have seriously misinterpreted the story then. I've got a few compilations myself and while Gwen may have been a bit of a flirt I've never seen anything that would suggest she was the bed hopping type. There was nothing consistent about her getting into bed with Norman.

You are totally forgetting the 90s here Sparky. But, yeah, any of them are real contenders for the dubious honor of "worst Spider-Man run ever.

So how am I forgetting the 90s then? As bad as "The Clone Saga" was, I'd still say "Sins Past" and OMD were worst.

[andersonh1]

The Flash, #s 1 and 2

And a book that I thought would be quite dull actually turns out to be very enjoyable. I've never read the Barry Allen Flash before, apart from JLA year one and Crisis, so the character is pretty much a blank slate as far as I'm concerned. Wally West was the Flash the entire time I was reading comics, and of course I was aware of Barry Allen as his mentor and predecessor and DC's official 'saint', whose death would never be undone. Never say never, right?

So Barry Allen is the police scientist and is reinstated in the equivalent of Central City's CSI. The official story is that he's been in witness protection for years, but his old boss remembers him and talks him up in front of the rest of the department. Which of course, makes them resentful of the new guy on the block. The police crime lab operates under political pressure to get results and get them fast, which conflicts with Allen's sense of justice, so there's a good character-based conflict right off the bat unrelated to super-heroics.

I assume Central City is meant to be the equivalent to Chicago. It's well drawn by the artist as a place constantly in motion. The art is slightly 'cartoony' for want of a better word, but full of energy and motion, which is exactly what's needed for a character like the Flash. And we're treated to some fun speed-related tricks right off the bat as Barry chases down the Trickster in his car, casually catches bullets as his henchman tries to shoot him, and then disassembles the car in midair when it flies off the elevated roadway towards some construction workers. Barry's relationship with Iris is front and center as the two communicate with blackberries while apart. This is a case where the comic book universe and real history get jumbled... there were no blackberries or cell phones per se in 1986 in the real world, so Allen would never have seen them. They're still portrayed as somewhat new to him. As he says in "Rebirth", the world is catching up to him. Everything moves faster now.

This book is considerably more fun than I expected it to be.

[138 Scourge]

I have no idea if it still counts, or how DC's geography regarding their fictional cities works, but a "JLA Secret Files" thing from the Morrison era lists Central City as being in Missouri. When you figure that it's got a twin city in "Keystone City, Kansas", then the Flashes cities are the analogue for the beautiful cities of Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas.

At least they were then. Again, fictional cities can probably move (just what the hell state is Opal City in, right), so it may not be the case anymore.

And checking the Wikipedia: Central City was in Ohio, specifically where Athens, Ohio would be, back in the 70's. In the 80's, it was near Florida. In the 90's, it was, in fact, Central City, MO. But Darwin Cooke put it in Illinois, so it may have moved in where Chicago is now.

I always figured that Gotham was Chicago, though. A lot of Batman's rouges are kind of hyped-up mobsters, which I guess makes him costumed Eliot Ness.

EDIT: And I dunno, I've heard good reviews of the new Flash book, but I just can't bring myself to check it out. If I'm missing out then I'm missing out, but I just can't read a Barry Allen comic.

[Dominic]

The only comic I got today that I plan to read is "Transformers: Nefarious" #4...which I am only getting because it is on my pull list and it is not worth cancelling at this point. I will probably post a review in my blog in the next day or so.

Last night, I finished "Secret Wars", and will post some thoughts soonish. (It really is not worth a long post.)


The cities:

Most DC comics have a real-life analogue.

Minneapolis-Saint Paul are the assumed twin cities when people use the term. Kansas City is more of a shared city, similar to Berlin during the Cold War, but minus the espionage.

I think Opal City was supposed to be an analogue for Seattle, WA. (Think trendy 90s here.)

Star City was Boston. It is now 'Frisco.

The Question's Hub City, despite having a name evocative of Boston, is either Detroit or Chicago.

If not for the obvious harbor and sea coast, Metropolis would be a good analogue for Dayton or Kansas City. As it stands, the name "Big Apricot" places it firmly as New York's analogue.

Like Metropolis, Gotham has moved around a bit, settling somewhere between the beltway and NYC. For a time, people argued it was in New Jersey, but Baltimore is more credible, especially given Bludhaven's rough placement.

Coast City was an analogue for San Diego, possibly with some desirable norther CA elements mixed in.



I flipped through "Brightest Day". I do not think that Raymond, (who is back to 80s spec in terms of maturatiopn and such), is the one causing the problem. Rusch is the one who seemed to be "active" when Raymond had that bad trip. I think this is more set-up for Rusch to be out, and likely Stein to be back in. I imagine it will play as "current" (in this case retro) character trashing their non-current analogue. Rusch will attack/harm Raymond out of a desire for revenge, (how very 90s), and Raymond will kill him in self-defense, refuting the bad 90s flavor. (Or, something along those lines.)

This is a case where the comic book universe and real history get jumbled... there were no blackberries or cell phones per se in 1986 in the real world, so Allen would never have seen them. They're still portrayed as somewhat new to him. As he says in "Rebirth", the world is catching up to him. Everything moves faster now.

Of course, given the way events get moved forward, there would have been Blackberries when Barry died. The technology existed ~10 years ago. I distinctly remember seeing ads on the train while on my way to work and wondering when my income and the retail price would intersect. Crisis could not have been much more than 7 years before roughly current DC continuity. Jason Todd's time line is at least 7 years. Assume 6 months as Robin, (which would include participation in CoIE in some form), ~5years being dead (assuming he was 13 when he died and the "he would have been 18 today" line from "Hush"), 1 year for 52, and (very optimistically) 6 months since then that would include "Countdown" and "Battle for the Cowl".

There were 3 stories panned, "Sin's Past", "The Other" and "One More Day". All of which I'd point out (again) were heavy on Editorial involvement, to the point JMS actually wanted his name taken off of the last issue of OMD because it really wasn't his story. None of those stories played out as JMS would have liked.

I recall that article actually. JMS took credit for what was his. I am going to say that "Sins Past" was helped by editorial involvement. As bad as the Goblin-bastards were, Spider-bastards would have been worse.

Peter actually *did* give up being Spider-Man for a while, with Ben Reilly there to take over for him. His intention (being a married man with a pregnant wife) was to retire from costumed life, settle down and raise his family. Having the marriage magically erased, I just see this playing out a little differently. Maybe it's more of a character thing that you're just not seeing.

I just do not see a legal marriage as being that important to the decision. Peter would still have a responsibility to the kid, which would have been consistent with his actions at the time regardless of being married.

So how am I forgetting the 90s then? As bad as "The Clone Saga" was, I'd still say "Sins Past" and OMD were worst.

I know people who argue both sides of that. I am one of them. I tilt towards "Clone Saga", if only because Marvel has come out and said how bad it was.


Dom
-thinks Marvel just needs to be honest and do a hard reboot.

[Sparky Prime]

I have to say that the white ring is beginning to look like the greatest and most powerful plot device ever, and it’s bothering me. The thing is capable of independent thought, self-determination, and it can not only keep Boston Brand invisible while taking him anywhere it wants to go, but it can drag him across the universe and into the Anti-Monitor’s residence, wherever that is. In other words, it’s an all-purpose plot device and seems almost unlimited in what it can do. There needs to be a good explanation for this.

I thought the explanation behind the white power ring was already pretty clear... We already know from "Blackest Night" that the White light comes from The Entity that created life. Boston Brand has a direct connection to that Entity through the white power ring he has. So it is the Entity itself that is talking to Brand and controlling the what the ring does.

Edit:

I recall that article actually. JMS took credit for what was his. I am going to say that "Sins Past" was helped by editorial involvement. As bad as the Goblin-bastards were, Spider-bastards would have been worse.

That's extremely debatable. We have no idea how JMS would have handled things differently had he been allowed to keep them as Peter's kids, let alone the reception that would have had. Personally, I would have preferred that to the Goblin-bastards.

I just do not see a legal marriage as being that important to the decision. Peter would still have a responsibility to the kid, which would have been consistent with his actions at the time regardless of being married.

It's not the decision or Peter's responsibilities I'm debating here, I just can't see the story playing out *exactly* like it did before had the two not been married. For example, wouldn't the two seriously consider getting married at that point? And then, why didn't they? Maybe not being married, Peter wouldn't have felt such a need to retire from crime fighting. And so on... These aren't things that would have needed to be addressed before because they were married originally.

[andersonh1]

I have to say that the white ring is beginning to look like the greatest and most powerful plot device ever, and it’s bothering me. The thing is capable of independent thought, self-determination, and it can not only keep Boston Brand invisible while taking him anywhere it wants to go, but it can drag him across the universe and into the Anti-Monitor’s residence, wherever that is. In other words, it’s an all-purpose plot device and seems almost unlimited in what it can do. There needs to be a good explanation for this.

I thought the explanation behind the white power ring was already pretty clear... We already know from "Blackest Night" that the White light comes from The Entity that created life. Boston Brand has a direct connection to that Entity through the white power ring he has. So it is the Entity itself that is talking to Brand and controlling the what the ring does.

That's what I get for missing most of Blackest Night. So would I be correct in guessing that since the entity is connected to every living thing in the universe, that this perhaps accounts for the ability to go anywhere and drop in on anyone? Somehow? At least that might explain how he keeps pulling Boston Brand to the exact spot where Aquaman is, or where Dove is, or whatever.