Comics are awesome.

[138 Scourge]

Really, the only thing that bad about the deal with the devil is that it was a deal with the devil. That part I've got a hard part getting past. Other than that, I really haven't had a problem with "Brand New Day" at all.

But y'know, subjectivity. I suppose if you read some superhero books for any length of time, you're gonna come across something that's jaw-droppingly goofy. And people are gonna have different ideas as to what's just too damn crazy.

And seriously, I just keep making fun of "Giant Yellow Space Bug" because I've found everything that came after it incredibly boring. If I was still plagued by insomnia, I'd totally buy some of the TPBs, but since I get enough sleep nowadays, I don't need 'em. But that's just me. I'm okay with being in the minority on this one, GL can sell tons more books than Spidey (don't know if they do, don't care) and it's not gonna make me more interested in the Rainbow Rangers.

[andersonh1]

It is pandering to have the characters nevereverever change...ever, for any reason if the assumption is that readers cannot handle it.

Every character DC has in its lineup has changed. It's possible (and preferable) to do that without having them go off the deep end.

I am the last one who would argue that we need more books like Mark Waid's exhibitionist tantrums, "Irredeemable" and "Incorruptible". But, there is a case to be made for accentuating heroice qualities by showing a hero fall, (perhaps by taking the heroic qualities too far).

Irredeemable is exactly what we got with Parallax. He killed everyone in the entire universe from the beginning of time until the end. That's mass murder of unimaginable proportions. That's not something to just gloss over.

Hal's actions in "Emerald Twilight" were not that far off base for a super hero. They solve problems. The more problems, and types of problems, one tries to solve, the more ownership one is taking of the problems and solutions. Hal took ownership of the Coast City problem, and he applied it on a large scale. And, look what happened.

Killing everyone that ever lived is just a larger scale attempt to solve a problem? Really?

There is a huge difference between accessibility and stagnation. Bringing in new readers is one thing. Getting them to stick around is quite another. I flip through, and even pick up, random books all the time. But, if they do not seem to have any direction or real premise, I do not bother to pick up the next one.

Dom, why exactly do you read comics?

DC was not trying to jettison old continuity with Kyle, they were trying to advance it.

No, they were trying to complete dump Hal Jordan and everything associated with him and go "back to basics" by having one Green Lantern with his power ring. No Guardians, no corps, and no one other than Kyle called Green Lantern. That doesn't advance anything. He becomes yet another lone super-powered vigilante with a costume and a gimmick.

It wasn't actually undone... it still happened, and so all the consequences still have meaning.

What consequences? Barry is back. And, inside of a few years, the other non-Jay Flashes will retire/die.

That's your opinion, but it doesn't mean it will happen. It's equally as likely that DC editorial will decide that it's a unique situation having four Flashes active in the DC universe at one time and will explore that situation.

The main consequence of Barry Allen's death: Wally West stepped up to fill his mentor's shoes and become the Flash, enjoying enormous character growth as a consequence. I don't see him reverting to Kid Flash, and I don't see all that character growth going away either. And now there's an opportunity to see him as a mature individual interact with someone who last saw him when he was a teen with a lot of growing to do. That's something we saw some degree of in Rebirth, and something I'd enjoy seeing more of in future.

They could always have kept Wally as the main Flash, but what else are they going to do with him that they haven't already done? Barry Allen hasn't been the main character in the Flash comic for 25 years. A lot has changed in that time, both in terms of storytelling, tone and characters. There's a lot of potential here.

By the way, did you know that Marv Wolfman had left an out in case anyone ever wanted to revive Barry Allen after the Crisis? His idea was that someone could have pulled him through the 'time windows' he was passing as he ran to his death.

[andersonh1]

Anyway, if "Giant Yellow Space Bug" was worth it to get Jordan back, then "Deal With the Devil" was worth it to bring back Harry Osborn. I will say, though, I don't know for sure if it was the turning back time that brought back Harry, or that his death was faked by Mysterio. But either way, I'm just glad that Harry's back, and we didn't even have to get Rainbow Goblins to do it!

What? How can you say if one was worth it so was the other? The two are completely disproportionate to each other. Parallax and the Emotional Spectrum have greatly added to the Green Lantern mythos and has brought about consistently great stories. The deal with the devil, on the other hand, has taken more away from Spidey (his marriage, his 'new' powers, a sense of independence and so on) than it gave him back, and the stories have been generally pretty terrible since then. Making Parallax a separate entity was a great move, while Spidey's deal with the devil was terrible, and not worth it just for Harry being back.

Agreed. One More Day was a magical reset button that stripped away much of Spiderman's growth. Parallax grew out of the need to exonerate Hal Jordan and was a decent explanation for the yellow weakness that plagued Green Lanterns up until Kyle. And I agree, it's added to the Green Lantern mythos rather than taken away from it.

[138 Scourge]

I don't see it as having stripped away Spider-Man's growth. The only thing it really did is got rid of the marriage, making it instead a fairly serious relationship that didn't work out. The fact that it's a magic reset button, yeah, I'll agree with that. It's pretty much the second-biggest magic reset button I've ever seen in fiction*. But all it really did was make Peter and Mary Jane not get a divorce.

Which, actually, would have been sort of interesting in itself. If they were determined to get rid of Spidey's marriage, that is.

Oh wait. It also got rid of Spider-Man's identity being publicly known. Okay, that I've sort of got a problem with, because I think that it would have been a really good thing for Peter Parker to be known to be a hero. I've probably said it before, but it would have made the "Friendly Neighborhood" part of his tag line more accurate than ever. "Hey, you kids, you havin' problems with gangsters or people trying to touch you funny or like that? Go talk to that nice Mr. Parker down the block, he might be able to help." Sure, you get Peter open to reprisal from villains or whatever, but y'know, cops don't go around with secret identities, they don't seem to have to worry about such things.

Now, things that stripped away Peter's growth, how bout that amazing vanishing Spider-Baby? Now, I wasn't reading regularly about that time, but I'd imagine that having the baby on the way and getting ready to be a dad and all would have profoundly changed Peter's life. But instead...what, Norman kidnapped the kid, right? But then they never went back to that plotline? See, I'd call that worse than "Brand New Day", because at least "BND" knew that it was stone crazy.

*The first was in a short story called "There Are No Dead" by Terry Bisson, in which there is a literal magic reset button that keeps setting the protagonist's lives back to childhood.

[Sparky Prime]

Really, the only thing that bad about the deal with the devil is that it was a deal with the devil. That part I've got a hard part getting past. Other than that, I really haven't had a problem with "Brand New Day" at all.

That's far from the only bad thing about it. They made a lot of changes to Spider-Man, and it wasn't just undoing the marriage. The new powers he got in "Avengers Disassembled" and "The Other" mysteriously vanished. Harry mysteriously back from the dead. Aunt May resurrected from the dead, again (despite even asking Peter to let her go and move on with his life). His identity revealed magically undone, even to those who've known long before "Civil War". I could go on, but essentially we are talking about years worth of history and character growth thrown out the window all because Quesada wanted to relive Spidey's life when he was single and penniless.

ASM used to be among my favorite titles, but this was really the worst possible thing they could have done to Spidey and really killed all interest I had in the title.

And seriously, I just keep making fun of "Giant Yellow Space Bug" because I've found everything that came after it incredibly boring. If I was still plagued by insomnia, I'd totally buy some of the TPBs, but since I get enough sleep nowadays, I don't need 'em. But that's just me. I'm okay with being in the minority on this one, GL can sell tons more books than Spidey (don't know if they do, don't care) and it's not gonna make me more interested in the Rainbow Rangers.

I can understand your disposition toward Parallax because of your dislike toward "Rebirth" but there is nothing boring about the stories that have come after. The War of Light has been a great plot line, making GL seriously one of, if not the best comic book on shelves these days.

I don't see it as having stripped away Spider-Man's growth. The only thing it really did is got rid of the marriage, making it instead a fairly serious relationship that didn't work out. The fact that it's a magic reset button, yeah, I'll agree with that. It's pretty much the second-biggest magic reset button I've ever seen in fiction*. But all it really did was make Peter and Mary Jane not get a divorce.

No, like I said above, it did so much more than just get rid of the marriage. I honestly don't think Quesada actually thought this story through when he wrote it. If you can still find the interviews from the time, you can actually see how his responses change as the fans complained and pointed things out. And no one bought his "It's magic, it doesn't have to be explained" excuse. I think that's why now, about 4 years later, they finally announced this "OMIT" storyline to try to "explain" things.

Now, things that stripped away Peter's growth, how bout that amazing vanishing Spider-Baby?

Speaking of... Quesada said they went with the deal with the devil to undo the marriage because of 'moral concerns' that having Peter and MJ divorce would have (to which many fans ask how is making a deal with the devil any better?). The pregnancy is supposedly still canon, so what about the 'moral concerns' over having a baby out of wedlock? Granted, attitudes toward that sort of thing have changed over the years, but given Peter's "With great power comes great responsibility" motto, I really don't see him being the type to have a baby out of wedlock either way.

[Onslaught Six]

Speaking of... Quesada said they went with the deal with the devil to undo the marriage because of 'moral concerns' that having Peter and MJ divorce would have (to which many fans ask how is making a deal with the devil any better?). The pregnancy is supposedly still canon, so what about the 'moral concerns' over having a baby out of wedlock? Granted, attitudes toward that sort of thing have changed over the years, but given Peter's "With great power comes great responsibility" motto, I really don't see him being the type to have a baby out of wedlock either way.

I think a baby born out of wedlock isn't exactly a big f'in deal, especially in this day and age. If he's being a complete deadbeat and not taking care of it (and MJ isn't all "I don't want you involved in his/her life, because I'm a whore and also kind of uninteresting,") then that's different, but the very nature of being born prior to marriage isn't exactly a big deal.

[138 Scourge]

Nah, Pete would have taken care of the kid, but it disappeared right after being born. I think Osborn ran off with it.

[andersonh1]

I think a baby born out of wedlock isn't exactly a big f'in deal, especially in this day and age.

Tell that to all the single mothers and all the kids in foster homes or who don't even know who their father is. Or the type of women my wife used to work with who have three or four kids, and every one of them has a different father. The societal stigma may not be what it was, but kids born out of wedlock are still a big deal. It's certainly harmful to the well-being of the child.

With that in mind, would a character like Peter Parker, whose whole philosphy is based off of taking responsibility for his actions, really view things so lightly? I doubt it.

[Sparky Prime]

I think a baby born out of wedlock isn't exactly a big f'in deal, especially in this day and age.

Like I said, attitudes have changed over the years, however...

Tell that to all the single mothers and all the kids in foster homes or who don't even know who their father is. Or the type of women my wife used to work with who have three or four kids, and every one of them has a different father. The societal stigma may not be what it was, but kids born out of wedlock are still a big deal. It's certainly harmful to the well-being of the child.

With that in mind, would a character like Peter Parker, whose whole philosphy is based off of taking responsibility for his actions, really view things so lightly? I doubt it.

I agree completely. With the marriage magically erased, it does change things with MJ' pregnancy. I can't see Peter not going crazy about it with how strong his sense of responsibility is and the values his Aunt and Uncle gave him.

[Onslaught Six]

I dunno. Spider-Man sucks anyway.

Who'd Rulk turn out to be? Was it General Ross? I think I read that he ended up not being revealed but then he totally was.