story telling thoughts

[Onslaught Six]

My favourite uses of Supes are still, in order, DKR and Kingdom Come. And only because Kingdom Come brings in Captain Marvel, who is awesome when written right. (Read: Like Superman, but stronger, and a dick.)

[Shockwave]

I think this is part of why I like it when superheroes are written to have "real" problems, like the fact that Spidey can't pay his rent. Let's see Kent get fired and have to fight his own poverty, a problem where his powers would be completely useless to him to solve (at least without sacrificing his moral high ground). That's a comic I'd wanna read.

[Onslaught Six]

Supes has an option, though--if really need be, Clark Kent can just...disappear. In fact, much of the Clark Kent persona has become obsolete in recent years. There's not a lot of point to it--he's Superman, everyone knows Superman, and he can just go do whatever he wants as Superman. If it's a problem of being a target, he can just go eat lunch in the Fortress of Solitude. Spidey doesn't have that option.

If it's a question of "protecting loved ones," it's not like Superman doesn't actively save Lois Lane all the time anyway, making that kind of irrelevant. In fact--isn't what I'm talking about kind of exactly what happens in DKR? (In fact, Batman referring to Supes by his false "human" name, Clark, rather than his actual name, might say something about Bats' attitude towards the man. "Regardless of your alien superpoweredness--you're still just a dude in a costume to me.")

[Shockwave]

But there in lies the problem with Supes. Sure he still has that option of running off the fortress of solitude, but what if he can't afford lunch? Sure he could steal it, but that would go against one of the core principals of the character. And it's not like "being Superman" is an actual job that he gets paid money for and in order to function in society he would have to have some sort of income.

Also, what's DKR (I don't read much DC)?

[Dominic]

DKR = "Dark Knight Returns", Miller's way the hell over-rated story from the 80s.


Superman *is* Clark Kent. This goes back at least to Byrne's run on "Man of Steel", if not earlier. This is what keeps him from being Mr. Majestic or Supreme, despite his name. (Remember, the media gave him the name and brand.)

Superman technically does not have to eat, (or not more than a very little), so not being able to afford lunch is a minor problem. Worst care scenario means that Superman could hunt for his food, which would be perfectly legal.

Dom
-does not need to identify with the characters so much.

[Shockwave]

Well it's not really about "identifying" with the character as much as it is about having it be "believeable". My argument here is that Superman's power set is so far out that it's not even believeable and then I start wondering "why the hell am I reading this?" To be fair, this exact reason is what attracted me to the character when I was younger. Escapism, totally and completely.

[BWprowl]

Well it's not really about "identifying" with the character as much as it is about having it be "believeable".

Oh sweet, this means I get to call you out for thinking Spider-Man is "believable", a favorite shtick of mine. Sorry in advance!

*ahem*

I hate it when people say they love Spider-Man because he's 'realistic' or 'believable'. "He's just a regular guy, like me!" they say. Oh, really? When was the last time you were able to go to college, hold down a newspaper photography job, swing around town every night fighting crime, perform stitching and sewing work on your regularly damaged costume, do detective work to follow up on the aforementioned crimefighting, mix just enough web-fluid to leave yourself empty when you fall off a building, and still have time to date three women? Unless New York's minutes really do last an hour each, Peter Parker must have the speed of The Flash and the endurance of Captain America! It all exposes Spider-Man for what he is at it's worst: a high-flying adolescent action fantasy that completely breaks down when you try to apply a real-world timetable to it. At least Bruce 'rich idiot with no day job' Wayne can account for most of the time he spends in his tights.

Being a teenager is hard enough. Being a teenage super-hero isn't just harder, it's physically impossible. I don't identify with Peter when he doesn't have enough money to pay for his rent, because not only can I pay my rent because I didn't spend all my money on spandex, but I'm too busy going "When the hell did you have time to hunt for an apartment, dude?!".

[Sparky Prime]

When was the last time you were able to go to college, hold down a newspaper photography job, swing around town every night fighting crime, perform stitching and sewing work on your regularly damaged costume, do detective work to follow up on the aforementioned crimefighting, mix just enough web-fluid to leave yourself empty when you fall off a building, and still have time to date three women?

Except Peter didn't exactly manage to do a good job in juggling all of that stuff. Due to his crime fighting alter-ego, he was often late or completely missed/forgot about things, usually upsetting his Aunt or girlfriend(s). Probably didn't help his grades any either but with his intelligence, I'd believe he managed to do alright in that area. It's understandable he'd forget to make more web-fluid with how busy he is. He didn't graduate from college with his class due to missing a gym credit. He actually dropped out of his graduate program for a while due to things getting too hectic for him. His costumes, he usually has a back-up costume available, but there have been occasions where he's been forced to improvise due to lacking a costume in good condition. His photography job at the Bugle was more of a freelance thing. He often thought about quitting being Spidey due to having a hard time handling it all.

So yeah, the writers really did cover their bases when it comes to making Spidey believable. At least until Quesada started messing with him...

[Onslaught Six]

But there in lies the problem with Supes. Sure he still has that option of running off the fortress of solitude, but what if he can't afford lunch? Sure he could steal it, but that would go against one of the core principals of the character. And it's not like "being Superman" is an actual job that he gets paid money for and in order to function in society he would have to have some sort of income.

He flies into a Burger King and the pimply-faced nerd behind the counter goes, "Holy shit, it's Superman! Here, have a Whopper."

Probably didn't help his grades any either

Wasn't there a minor plot point in the second film where Doc Ock (pre-mecharms) was lecturing Peter for doing horribly in his classes? I may just be thinking about the game.

He didn't graduate from college with his class due to missing a gym credit.

Spider-Man isn't realistic. College doesn't have gym.

[Dominic]

hate it when people say they love Spider-Man because he's 'realistic' or 'believable'. "He's just a regular guy, like me!" they say. Oh, really? When was the last time you were able to go to college, hold down a newspaper photography job, swing around town every night fighting crime, perform stitching and sewing work on your regularly damaged costume, do detective work to follow up on the aforementioned crimefighting, mix just enough web-fluid to leave yourself empty when you fall off a building, and still have time to date three women? Unless New York's minutes really do last an hour each, Peter Parker must have the speed of The Flash and the endurance of Captain America! It all exposes Spider-Man for what he is at it's worst: a high-flying adolescent action fantasy that completely breaks down when you try to apply a real-world timetable to it. At least Bruce 'rich idiot with no day job' Wayne can account for most of the time he spends in his tights.

Quoted for truth.

Except Peter didn't exactly manage to do a good job in juggling all of that stuff. Due to his crime fighting alter-ego, he was often late or completely missed/forgot about things, usually upsetting his Aunt or girlfriend(s).

All things considered, Peter did amazingly well.

Not quite 10 years back, I was a college student and working as a free-lance reporter, and holding down an officey type job while (unsuccessfully) pursuing a gal. That just about tapped me out. If not for a longish commute between home, work and school (that I used as reading time), I would have been in trouble.

Keep in mind, I was in my early 20s then. In my early 30s, I can barely keep things together while doing less, as I have less energy now.

Spidey's commute would double as zipping across town. But, the studying and socializing and working....

Spiderman does as much, if not more power-gaming that Superman. (Superman has no need to sleep. Spiderman is almost a nerd's Mary Sue.)

Spider-Man isn't realistic. College doesn't have gym.

Some do. I think Cornell does.

Yeah, it is idiotic. And, yes, I would avoid schools with a gym mandate. But, some schools do have that sort of idiotic requirement. The pretense is that physical fitness is important. The real reason is usually something closer to letting athletic departments pretend they are academically important rather than just being revenue machines for the school.

Dom
-would find a way to cheat in gym.