thoughts on the Beast-era

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
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Sparky Prime
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

Post by Sparky Prime »

andersonh1 wrote:He wasn't begging. He was trying to bluff Megatron.
A bluff that didn't fool Megatron for even a second. Yet Rattrap was still willing to listen to Megatron after that. Seems like begging to me if he was still willing to go that far just to get his hands on some weapons.
Yeah, and how likely is that? That's a horribly coincidental piece of writing, that they would just happen to find the one place on the planet where Megatron carried out his schemes. It's utterly absurd. It's about as stupid as the utter ease with which the Maximals trash the Vehicon drones time and time again.
Now this is more to the point I'm getting at. The writers didn't seem to care how realistic something was, they just wanted to fill the roll the episode called for.
Would control-freak Megatron have left any weapons stashed anywhere? I doubt it.
Would Megatron know where every single weapon on Cybertron was stored? I doubt that.
And even with his army of drones, I doubt he'd have gone looking for every single weapon with the populace pretty much wiped out. Heck, he was arrogant enough to move the Autobot shuttle to the space port after the Maximals crashed.
Let's apply that idea to "The Weakest Link". You and Synjo have both suggested that Rattrap should have scavenged some weaponry off some of the immobilized Vehicons. But how do those weapons work? They're hardwired into the Vehicons, right? Controlled as part of their bodies, not free standing weapons with triggers that someone can point and shoot.
What, like they couldn't take it apart and rework it into something they could use? Not to mention we saw Rattrap could hack into the drones through his tail to take direct control of them. Would have been interesting to see Rattrap invent a 'gun extension' for his tail like the other tools he had.
Rattrap is not, at this point, the inventor and tech-head that he develops into. He's a sharpshooter and demolitions expert who has spent the last five episodes trying to learn how to transform.
He was also a spy, and that would require some tech skills given how sophisticated some Cybertronian security systems are (and Rattrap claimed he hadn't met one he couldn't beat). "Double Jeopardy" showed Rattrap using his spy gear for picking locks and stuff around the Predacon base and we found out in a later episode he installed a spy cam while he was at it. He was shown to be working on some maintenance on the Axlalon in "Code of Hero". I'd assume it took all of the Maximals to help salvage the Axalon and set up the volcano base. And Rattrap just strikes me as the type to know his way around a gun. Seems to me he should have all the tech skills required to reconfigure one.
Because he didn't beg. He went in and threatened Megatron, and Megatron called his bluff. Megatron then offered a deal, which Rattrap accepted. Rattrap then started to turn on Megatron, only to have Megatron appeal to his better nature and give Rattrap pause. There was no begging involved anywhere along the way.
Now you're just splitting hairs. Maybe Rattrap wasn't literally begging, but he was still willing to go to great lengths just to get his hands on weapons from Megatron, hence why I call it begging.
The drones were all offline. And even if they weren't, Rattrap had only just discovered how to hack into Cybertron's computers. I'm not even sure that he's contemplated controlling a Vehicon at this point. So why waste time messing around with deactivated Vehicons, hoping to get lucky? He went straight in and threatened Megatron and tried to get what he wanted that way.
I seem to recall Rattrap hacking into a mole drone that was offline at one point (in another episode), implying he could activate an inactive drone. But even so, it seemed like the Maximals automatically knew what their robot modes were capable of as soon as they mastered transforming into them (Cheetor's first time gliding with his swords for instance). As such, I think it should have occurred to Rattrap that he could hack essentially anything on Cybertron. And Rattrap wasn't sure exactly what condition Megatron was in yet. It would have made sense to spend the two seconds it takes him to plug into something to at least try it out and maybe have something to defend himself if need be. Not to mention, it would have been easier to do with a drone that isn't moving rather than when they're fully active.
And that's the point... he's not the Rattrap we knew in Beast Wars. He's changed.
And that's the problem... He didn't change naturally from his Beast Wars persona, it was forced on him to fit the roll of the episode. Even with the hardships he faced in the early episodes of Beast Machines, realistically, it doesn't make sense he'd ever consider going to Megatron, his mortal enemy, for help before even looking at other options first. I mean really, he had a hard enough time trusting Dinobot in Beast Wars. Even with Megatron in a weakened condition, why would he think he could ever trust him? Put simply, it was mis-characterization on the writers part.
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andersonh1
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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SynjoDeonecros wrote:Maybe this is what the writers were trying to do when they said they wanted to make the show more "cerebral"; make us overanalyze and overthink their piece of bad fanfiction and laugh at our pitiful attempts to make sense out of it and fit it into Transformer canon.
It's their revenge for all the fan complaints at the time. :lol:
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Onslaught Six
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Another thing we're all probably forgetting: Canonically, Transformers are stupid. And I don't mean, like, a little on the dim side, I mean these guys are sometimes complete idiots. This is a race that routinely, throughout multiple fictions, forgets where they came from and has to be reminded by their God that he exists. Sometimes even multiple times in the same continuity. "Hey! Primus made all of us! Also, we used to bud!"

This even applies to BW, where most of the main characters don't even know of events that transpired a mere 300 years ago. Sure, they say it's because the Maximal Elders are locking records and this and that, but come on--it's because TFs are dumb. They're really dumb. Rattrap ends up on a conquered Cybertron and goes "Fuck it, I'm out, because I am obviously too stupid to come up with a way to improve my situation." Primal sees the Oracle and goes "Holy Shit we have a God and I must obey Him."

This has been another attempt to end the argument with nonsense.
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andersonh1
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Onslaught Six wrote:Another thing we're all probably forgetting: Canonically, Transformers are stupid. And I don't mean, like, a little on the dim side, I mean these guys are sometimes complete idiots. This is a race that routinely, throughout multiple fictions, forgets where they came from and has to be reminded by their God that he exists. Sometimes even multiple times in the same continuity. "Hey! Primus made all of us! Also, we used to bud!"

This even applies to BW, where most of the main characters don't even know of events that transpired a mere 300 years ago. Sure, they say it's because the Maximal Elders are locking records and this and that, but come on--it's because TFs are dumb. They're really dumb. Rattrap ends up on a conquered Cybertron and goes "Fuck it, I'm out, because I am obviously too stupid to come up with a way to improve my situation." Primal sees the Oracle and goes "Holy Shit we have a God and I must obey Him."

This has been another attempt to end the argument with nonsense.
Hey, I'm convinced. You win. :mrgreen:
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

Post by SynjoDeonecros »

andersonh1 wrote:
SynjoDeonecros wrote:Maybe this is what the writers were trying to do when they said they wanted to make the show more "cerebral"; make us overanalyze and overthink their piece of bad fanfiction and laugh at our pitiful attempts to make sense out of it and fit it into Transformer canon.
It's their revenge for all the fan complaints at the time. :lol:
And/or Hasbro for their meddling; I've heard that the team got sick of all of the crap they had to go through with Hasbro during Beast Wars, and that some of them swore never to deal with another toy-based franchise in the future, so it could be a middle finger to both the franchise AND the fans. If the rumors of them being told NOT to put in any continuity from the previous franchises into BM is true, that could've been the final straw for the writers, and they said "fuck it" and attempted to screw everyone over with a mangled mess of a plot.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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But I like Beast Machines. Their screw-job obviously had the opposite effect. :)
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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SynjoDeonecros wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:
SynjoDeonecros wrote:Maybe this is what the writers were trying to do when they said they wanted to make the show more "cerebral"; make us overanalyze and overthink their piece of bad fanfiction and laugh at our pitiful attempts to make sense out of it and fit it into Transformer canon.
It's their revenge for all the fan complaints at the time. :lol:
And/or Hasbro for their meddling; I've heard that the team got sick of all of the crap they had to go through with Hasbro during Beast Wars, and that some of them swore never to deal with another toy-based franchise in the future, so it could be a middle finger to both the franchise AND the fans. If the rumors of them being told NOT to put in any continuity from the previous franchises into BM is true, that could've been the final straw for the writers, and they said "fuck it" and attempted to screw everyone over with a mangled mess of a plot.
Ok, I was kidding. Dom occasionally opines that someone is deliberately writing bad fiction for one reason or another, but I tend to think that rarely happens. I'm reasonably convinced that Bob Skir and all the other writers enjoyed working on the show, are proud of their work, and tried to write something with some depth and interest, and I think they succeeded rather well. Beast Machines is not without its flaws, but by and large it's pretty good.

I think it may have been Bob and Larry of Beast Wars who swore off toy-based franchises.
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Mako Crab
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

Post by Mako Crab »

Possibly, yeah. I know they had a lot of head-butting with Hasbro after season 1 ended and BW proved to be a surprise success. Suddenly Hasbro wanted a say in everything they did, whereas before they were pretty much allowed to run wild. I recall reading that Hasbro wanted...

* Primal to be brought back to life. Bob 'n' Larry were going to leave him dead.
* Waspinator to be killed off. Bob 'n' Larry fought to keep him.
* Wanted Scorponok and Terrorsaur killed off. Granted.
* Wanted Dinobot killed off. Granted, but what an exit they gave him.
* Of course, the inclusion of all the new characters we got and Transmetals. Granted.
* Season 3 to be more kid-friendly so they could shop the show around for syndication. Funny, considering how dark BM wound up being.
* Dark Glass got scrapped. Thanks, Hasbro! You just flushed another emmy, so we could have "Go With the Flow!"
* Season 4 got scrapped, because someone at Hasbro thought that they'd done everything they could do on prehistoric Earth. At least that's the reasoning I heard.

And plenty more I'm sure I forgot about. I can understand Bob 'n' Larry being upset by all the chefs crowding up their kitchen, but they've both gone on to write stuff for franchise material since like MOTU and X-Men. And hey, they even returned to write an ep of TFA, so there's that. It's just part of the business. Producers fork up all the money, so writers kind of have to roll with the changes.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Onslaught Six wrote:This even applies to BW, where most of the main characters don't even know of events that transpired a mere 300 years ago. Sure, they say it's because the Maximal Elders are locking records and this and that, but come on--it's because TFs are dumb
That's not quite true... Primal said the files on Starscream were locked, but that doesn't mean they were completely in the dark about the Great War. In fact, they do recognize the Ark when they first saw it and understand it's historical significance. Some of the Predacons also indicate they are quite knowledgeable about the Great War, Blackarachnia in particular.
andersonh1 wrote:I think it may have been Bob and Larry of Beast Wars who swore off toy-based franchises.
No, it wasn't them that swore off toy-based franchises... I know they did some work on the 2002 He-Man cartoon and they even came back and wrote another Transformers episode for Transformers Animated... "Predacons Rising". I think it was Bob Skir that swore off toy-based franchises because of all the flack he got from the fan base's reaction to Beast Machines.
Mako Crab wrote:* Primal to be brought back to life. Bob 'n' Larry were going to leave him dead.
They weren't even sure the show would have a season 2. The last episode of season 1 ends with a "The End ?" as a result.

And another point... Tigerhawk was killed off so quickly because Hasbro didn't want to make a toy of it, but ended up making one anyway.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

Post by Onslaught Six »

Yes. There was much meddling towards the end of S3's life. But don't blame the cancelling of Dark Glass on Hasbro--it's been said that it wasn't that the episode was "too dark" but that there wasn't enough action in it. (I recall a fancomic, that was actually done in CGI and pretty well too, went ahead and added a subplot with Depth Charge fighting Rampage again.)
Mako Crab! wrote:* Season 3 to be more kid-friendly so they could shop the show around for syndication. Funny, considering how dark BM wound up being.
BM didn't air in syndication like BW did. BM only ever aired on Fox Kids.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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