thoughts on the Beast-era

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Sparky Prime
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

Post by Sparky Prime »

SynjoDeonecros wrote:What really gets me, though, was his assessment of Megatron, specifically that his personality change in Beast Machines was logical, because he already had it throughout Beast Wars. According to him, he had always hated free will and organics, citing his flagrant disregard for his minions in BW (and his desire to keep them loyal, which he interprets as "being his mindless puppets") and the fact that, according to him, the only evidence we had of him liking his beast mode was for its power as examples.
Yeah, I've seen some people try to make that argument as well. I honestly do not see how anyone could come to that conclusion though...

There is a running gag through-out Beast Wars showing Megatron treating his t-rex/dragon hand like it was a pet, even brushing the t-rex's teeth in one episode. If that isn't evidence he liked his beast mode beyond just the power it gave him, then I dunno what is. Really, in Beast Wars, Megatron doesn't seem to mind organics, he even has a rubber ducky to play with in the CR Tank. He certainly doesn't have the all out intolerance of everything organic that he has in Beast Machines.

And as for free will... Like you said, Megatron relied on the plots of others at various points through-out Beast Wars, specifically the schemes of Tarantulas and Blackarachnia, benefiting from their free will. And the clones of Dinobot I'd really have to say goes to show how much Megatron valued Dinobot as one of his troops in particular. He wasn't cloning Dinobot to replace his other troops with drones, he was cloning Dinobot to have Dinobot back on his side (as well as for his own schemes of course). Megatron even stopped short of blasting Rattrap and Cheetor in "Aftermath" when he saw Inferno was in trouble and went to save him instead.

Like you, I can see how Megatron may have changed after Beast Wars (although I'd also agree with you there is nothing shown to support such a drastic change in Megatron), but he certainly didn't always have those viewpoints.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Sparky Prime wrote:Like you, I can see how Megatron may have changed after Beast Wars (although I'd also agree with you there is nothing shown to support such a drastic change in Megatron), but he certainly didn't always have those viewpoints.
One theory I've heard is that, since Megs was tied to the back of the Ark shuttle for a good bit of the ride back to Cybertron, the organic parts of his beast mode caused him Great Pain (TM) because he was in, you know, space. I can understand that, but really it's BM's fault for taking a joke at the end of BW and trying to base an entire series off of it.

Like I said, BM would have been a lot better if it *didn't have to involve the BW characters.* If you can imagine the show having a cast of entirely different Maximals who came from some other organic planet, it works a lot better. (If it helps, you can even pretend this takes place in an alternate universe where the BW characters were always like this. Personal canon!)
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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I always figured it was the influence of G1 Megatron's spark on BW Megatron that helped develop the anti-organic attitude. That's the easiest way to explain the attitude shift, and there's no denying it is a significant change in attitude from Beast Wars to Beast Machines.

The Maximals' changes from one series to another can be accounted for by the change in circumstances. They went from being involved in a conflict with fairly even odds on prehistoric Earth to being completely and hopelessly outnumbered after returning home to find that their planet was now an empty lifeless place ruled by an enemy they thought they had defeated. Throw in Optimus Primal's more and more extreme devotion to the Oracle and Rattrap's transformation problems, and the way the Maximals behave makes sense. I've never understood why their behavior is seen as character derailment. Their circumstances went from bad to extremely dire, and it's no surprise that the stress brought out the worst in them.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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andersonh1 wrote:The Maximals' changes from one series to another can be accounted for by the change in circumstances. They went from being involved in a conflict with fairly even odds on prehistoric Earth to being completely and hopelessly outnumbered after returning home to find that their planet was now an empty lifeless place ruled by an enemy they thought they had defeated. Throw in Optimus Primal's more and more extreme devotion to the Oracle and Rattrap's transformation problems, and the way the Maximals behave makes sense. I've never understood why their behavior is seen as character derailment. Their circumstances went from bad to extremely dire, and it's no surprise that the stress brought out the worst in them.
I couldn't disagree more. Looking at Rattrap, he was always about doom and gloom in Beast Wars as the most pessimistic member of the Maximal crew. Heck, one of his catch phrases was even "We're all gonna die". With that in mind, he still always managed to deal with it, even the worst of situations in Beast Wars when they were hopelessly outmatched. Sometimes even with out the ability to transform or weapons. Does that mean he lost his resourcefulness though? You can't tell me it makes sense for him to go begging to Megatron for weapons when he's got an entire planet worth of resources to scavenge around for, as he eventually does. Similarly, Primal's extreme devotion to the Oracle and it's plan conflicts with the objectiveness of being an explorer and starship captain. Sure, he feels responsible for "loosing" the Beast Wars, indirectly allowing Megatron to conquer Cybertron, but that doesn't mean he would suddenly make a shift to blindly follow an ancient super computer to the point he is easily deceived by false visions.

Sure, the situation for the Maximals was bad in Beast Machines, but that in and of itself does not explain the drastic character changes.
Onsalught Six wrote:One theory I've heard is that, since Megs was tied to the back of the Ark shuttle for a good bit of the ride back to Cybertron, the organic parts of his beast mode caused him Great Pain (TM) because he was in, you know, space. I can understand that, but really it's BM's fault for taking a joke at the end of BW and trying to base an entire series off of it.
That theory never worked for me... Megatron's dragon form appeared to be quite resistant to extreme conditions, seeing as how he survived a lava dip. I don't think space would have been that terrible for him.
andersonh1 wrote:I always figured it was the influence of G1 Megatron's spark on BW Megatron that helped develop the anti-organic attitude. That's the easiest way to explain the attitude shift, and there's no denying it is a significant change in attitude from Beast Wars to Beast Machines.
Even if some of G1 Megatron's spark rubbed off on BW Megatron, that was before G1 Megatron ever dealt with organic beings, before he had developed a hatred for them.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Sparky Prime wrote:I couldn't disagree more. Looking at Rattrap, he was always about doom and gloom in Beast Wars as the most pessimistic member of the Maximal crew. Heck, one of his catch phrases was even "We're all gonna die". With that in mind, he still always managed to deal with it, even the worst of situations in Beast Wars when they were hopelessly outmatched.
He did, but in Beast Wars he was able to transform and sure of himself and his abilities. In Beast Machines he lost the ability to transform for awhile, screwed up big time with the transformation enhancer, and then once he did figure out what he was doing, took plenty of verbal abuse from his friends. He's not the same bot he was during Beast Wars at that point. His experiences on Cybertron had worn him down. Turning in desperation to Megatron for a quick weapons fix is not unreasonable, particularly since Rattrap seems about to turn those very weapons back on Megatron at one point.

This is what gets me. People do change given time and given the right circumstances. It seems as though you're arguing that Rattrap has no breaking point, and that there is no circumstance that he can't rise above. Just on the face of it, that doesn't ring true. Clearly we saw him hit his breaking point, and after all he'd been through, that breaking point turns out to be rejection by his friends. It's very realistic characterization.
Sometimes even with out the ability to transform or weapons. Does that mean he lost his resourcefulness though? You can't tell me it makes sense for him to go begging to Megatron for weapons when he's got an entire planet worth of resources to scavenge around for, as he eventually does.
As you say, he does indeed eventually fall back on his old resourcefulness... once he gets his confidence back.
Similarly, Primal's extreme devotion to the Oracle and it's plan conflicts with the objectiveness of being an explorer and starship captain.
Why? He can't mix religion and science? Plenty of people do... it just doesn't usually happen in a Transformers cartoon.
Sure, he feels responsible for "losing" the Beast Wars, indirectly allowing Megatron to conquer Cybertron, but that doesn't mean he would suddenly make a shift to blindly follow an ancient super computer to the point he is easily deceived by false visions.
Don't underestimate the power of guilt as a motivating factor.
Sure, the situation for the Maximals was bad in Beast Machines, but that in and of itself does not explain the drastic character changes.
The situation wasn't bad, it was dire. It was a pressure cooker. It was tailor made to bring out the worst in everyone, and it did.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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andersonh1 wrote:He did, but in Beast Wars he was able to transform and sure of himself and his abilities.
Not always. Take "Call of the Jungle" for example, where none of the Maximals were allowed to transform to robot mode, eventually leading to a glitch in their programing. Or "Aftermath" and "Coming of the Fuzors" where the Predacons eventually wear down the Maximals to defeat (until Primal returns at the last second to save them). Along similar lines was "Chain of Command" where Rattrap was put in command (which he clearly wasn't so sure of his abilities) while Primal was disembodied. As I said, there were plenty of times in Beast Wars Rattrap was faced with tough situations, testing him and his abilities.
Turning in desperation to Megatron for a quick weapons fix is not unreasonable, particularly since Rattrap seems about to turn those very weapons back on Megatron at one point.
How is it not unreasonable to turn to their enemy when he's got an entire planet to look around for other alternatives? Surely, Megatron couldn't have stripped the entire planet of weapons. Or at the very least, Rattrap could have grabbed something off of some Vehicon drones to adapt for himself. There was no reason for Rattrap to go to Megatron himself with so many other options available to him, especially with Megatron temporarily out of commission at the time.
This is what gets me. People do change given time and given the right circumstances. It seems as though you're arguing that Rattrap has no breaking point, and that there is no circumstance that he can't rise above. Just on the face of it, that doesn't ring true. Clearly we saw him hit his breaking point, and after all he'd been through, that breaking point turns out to be rejection by his friends. It's very realistic characterization.
Of course Rattrap has a breaking point. It would be foolish to believe otherwise and I'm not saying Rattrap wasn't at his breaking point. I'm saying it isn't realistic characterization for Rattrap to go begging to his moral enemy as his first option when it should be a last resort if anything. As I pointed out above though, there were plenty of other options available to him at the time which he should have been well aware of.
As you say, he does indeed eventually fall back on his old resourcefulness... once he gets his confidence back.
Just lacking his confidence doesn't explain why he wouldn't think to look elsewhere before going to Megatron though. Rattrap has always been inventive in difficult situations. It just doesn't make sense he'd go with the last resort first.
Why? He can't mix religion and politics? Plenty of people do... it just doesn't usually happen in a Transformers cartoon.
Mixing, sure, but that isn't what Primal did. He went completely to an extreme by giving his full confidence in the Oracle.
Don't underestimate the power of guilt as a motivating factor.
For some reason I'm picturing Lord Sidious saying "Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side"....
Anyway, I can see Primal blaming himself explaining some of his behavior, but not all of it.
The situation wasn't bad, it was dire. It was a pressure cooker. It was tailor made to bring out the worst in everyone, and it did.
Even with an army of drones against them, the Maximals weren't that bad off. Really, season 1 they seemed to struggle more against the plans Rhinox put in motion than they did Megatron's. And in season 2 it wasn't until Obsidian and Strika were introduced that they seemed to have the most trouble.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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andersonh1 wrote:
Sparky Prime wrote:I couldn't disagree more. Looking at Rattrap, he was always about doom and gloom in Beast Wars as the most pessimistic member of the Maximal crew. Heck, one of his catch phrases was even "We're all gonna die". With that in mind, he still always managed to deal with it, even the worst of situations in Beast Wars when they were hopelessly outmatched.
He did, but in Beast Wars he was able to transform and sure of himself and his abilities. In Beast Machines he lost the ability to transform for awhile, screwed up big time with the transformation enhancer, and then once he did figure out what he was doing, took plenty of verbal abuse from his friends. He's not the same bot he was during Beast Wars at that point. His experiences on Cybertron had worn him down. Turning in desperation to Megatron for a quick weapons fix is not unreasonable, particularly since Rattrap seems about to turn those very weapons back on Megatron at one point.

This is what gets me. People do change given time and given the right circumstances. It seems as though you're arguing that Rattrap has no breaking point, and that there is no circumstance that he can't rise above. Just on the face of it, that doesn't ring true. Clearly we saw him hit his breaking point, and after all he'd been through, that breaking point turns out to be rejection by his friends. It's very realistic characterization.
Sometimes even with out the ability to transform or weapons. Does that mean he lost his resourcefulness though? You can't tell me it makes sense for him to go begging to Megatron for weapons when he's got an entire planet worth of resources to scavenge around for, as he eventually does.
As you say, he does indeed eventually fall back on his old resourcefulness... once he gets his confidence back.
So, episodes such as "Dark Voyage" (where he was rendered blind and forced to stay in his rat mode to survive due to Energon radiation), "A Better Mousetrap" (where he screwed up Sentinel, and faced life-threatening odds from the thing trying to shut it off), "Changing of the Guard" (where he was forced to go underwater to retrieve Sentinel, one of his worst fears in the show), etc. don't count for anything? Clearly, you are vastly UNDERestimating Rattrap's ability to swallow his pride and fear and get the job done, regardless of the circumstance, than we are OVERestimating it.

And no, having him gimp weapons from Megatron, the guy who put him in that situation in the first place, the guy whom he fought against for three seasons in the Beast Wars (which translates to who knows how many years in-continuity), and the guy who is a PREDACON, the SECOND worst thing in all of Cybertron, in his opinion, and the second thing that he'd be all the more happy to destroy (the first being Decepticons) makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. Seriously, you cannot just ignore all of his big talk and attitude against Dinobot and Blackarachnia joining the team, or his hatred for traitors in Beast Wars in order to justify this. Even at his breaking point, there's just no way in hell, with his ingraned hatred for both treachery and Predacons/Decepticons, he would even THINK about making a deal with Megatron, let alone let himself get TALKED DOWN OUT OF SHOOTING HIM when he got said weapons. Yeah, he turned on Megs for all of three cycles, before he was convinced not to BY MEGS HIMSELF. That's just stupid and unrealistic, and I'm afraid no amount of rationalizing can change the fact that it goes against EVERY SINGLE DEPICTION of that prejudice and hate we've seen of him, in Beast Wars.

Similarly, Primal's extreme devotion to the Oracle and it's plan conflicts with the objectiveness of being an explorer and starship captain.
Why? He can't mix religion and politics? Plenty of people do... it just doesn't usually happen in a Transformers cartoon.
Sure, he feels responsible for "losing" the Beast Wars, indirectly allowing Megatron to conquer Cybertron, but that doesn't mean he would suddenly make a shift to blindly follow an ancient super computer to the point he is easily deceived by false visions.
Don't underestimate the power of guilt as a motivating factor.
Guitl does NOT, in any way, translate to "blind religious fanaticism"; Yes, he'd be a bit on-edge and a little obsessed with bringing Megs down, but that's ALL he'd logically be focused on - taking Megs down and freeing the sparks of Cybertron. Getting "enlightened" into following the pseudo-spiritual advice of Cybertron Windows ME at ALL, let alone to the fanatical degree Optimus took it to, does not follow his guilty conscience. And remember when Optimus was reading through the Covenant of Primus? He seemed to take the scriptures within it more analytically than being a blind believer, taking the Nostradamus approach to theorizing how the events of the Beast Wars was prophesied in the Covenant. I don't think he would've taken the Oracle's visions at face value, let alone follow them so blindly. And usually, people DON'T mix politics and religion...wait, why are we even discussing pollitics in religion? You don't have to be political to be objective and analytical. The skepticism that comes from being a SCIENTIST should've prevented him from converting so easily to something he couldn't even explain, let alone prove.

[/quote]
Sure, the situation for the Maximals was bad in Beast Machines, but that in and of itself does not explain the drastic character changes.
The situation wasn't bad, it was dire. It was a pressure cooker. It was tailor made to bring out the worst in everyone, and it did.[/quote]

Yeah, a world full of mindless drones that they were able to confuse and fool easily several times, a virus that they were cured of after the reformatting, which gave them sleek new bodies whose beast modes render them INVISIBLE TO VEHICON SCANNERS, and all under the control of a maniacal madman on life support that relies SOLELY on his soulless minions to fight for him and never moves from his place in the one giant citadel the Maximals know about and can sneak into, with some ease. Yeah, that's pretty dire, if you ask me. Oh, sure, they're outnumbered umpteenbillion to one, but once the initial shock of the situation had worn off, they should've been able to figure out SOME way of fighting back, instead of degenerating into the useless mass of conflicting technoflesh they turned out to be for most of the series. Maybe the Oracle should've given THEM some enlightenment along with Optimus, to make sure things went more smoothly, and they didn't sabotage the whole deal with their illogical infighting like they did.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Or, alternately:

"Hey, Maximals! Remember that home planet you guys wanted to get back to? Yeah, now that you're here, it certainly looks like everyone's been wiped out, and your worst enemy runs everything now. Oh, also? Pretty much every time that something on this planet moves, it's trying to kill you. So have a good time with that!"

Sure, they dealt with it, but really, I don't see who wouldn't be a little put off by this situation.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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138 Scourge wrote:Or, alternately:

"Hey, Maximals! Remember that home planet you guys wanted to get back to? Yeah, now that you're here, it certainly looks like everyone's been wiped out, and your worst enemy runs everything now. Oh, also? Pretty much every time that something on this planet moves, it's trying to kill you. So have a good time with that!"

Sure, they dealt with it, but really, I don't see who wouldn't be a little put off by this situation.
There's a difference, though, between "a little put off" and "so completely off-character that they don't even remotely resemble their old selves just to show how dire the situation is". We're not saying that they wouldnt' be hard-pressed to handle the situation, just that there's nothing about the situation that would cause such a drastic and complete 180 of their personalities like that; be run a little ragged? Sure. Be obsessed a bit with bringing down Megs? Okay. Be a little frustrated with the poor performance of your body? We can buy that. Become the freakish love child of Fred Phelps and Ted Turner with Guts Man as the midwife, and a "cut your wrist" emo coward traitor? No, not for a second. And the fact that they faced off with equally dire and problematic circumstances in Beast Wars, and came out of it fine, just further shows how stupid it is for them to turn out this way. I can see them falling into despair, somewhat, over this, but not into fanatical evangelism and suicidal selfish treachery.
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Re: thoughts on the Beast-era

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Sparky Prime wrote:As I said, there were plenty of times in Beast Wars Rattrap was faced with tough situations, testing him and his abilities.
So in other words, it's not possible for him to come up against a situation where he can't handle it any more and does something desperate. Because he handled a lot of tough instances in the past, he should always handle them just as proficiently in the future?

It sounds like you believe Rattrap is incapable of failure. I know you don't mean that, but that's essentially what you're arguing here. That because he's tough and resourceful throughout Beast Wars that it's impossible that he would ever be anything else.
How is it not unreasonable to turn to their enemy when he's got an entire planet to look around for other alternatives? Surely, Megatron couldn't have stripped the entire planet of weapons.
Do we ever see the Maximals scavenge for weapons? We don't. In fact we see Rattrap cobbling those ridiculous explosive growth seed grenades later on. In any case, how long would it take one little Maximal to search one building in Cybertropolis for a weapon or for something to assemble into a weapon, let alone search the entire city or surrounding area?

Rattrap was tapped into the computer, and he knew Megatron was vulnerable. Rattrap keeps trying to tell Cheetor, Nightscream and Blackarachnia that Megatron was down, and they could go slag him right now, "once and for all". No one believed him (hence Nightscream's remark about "the rat was right!" when they find the depowered Megatron) so he took off on his own, conned Megatron out of the weapons platform, and was clearly planning to dispose of him and end the war right then and there. You boil it down to "Rattrap going to Megatron for weapons", but that isn't entirely accurate.

Now would the Rattrap we saw in Beast Wars have shot a defenseless opponent? Probably so, at least as late as the end of season one, where he mocks Waspinator and talks about fighting dirty. Not that Waspinator was defenseless, but still... clearly all that time serving under Optimus had some effect on him, since he invokes Primal's name when defending his actions. "Optimus would never attack a defenseless opponent".
Or at the very least, Rattrap could have grabbed something off of some Vehicon drones to adapt for himself.
Again, did he have the time? He knew Megatron was damaged and vulnerable. The window of opportunity to attack was not that large.
There was no reason for Rattrap to go to Megatron himself with so many other options available to him, especially with Megatron temporarily out of commission at the time.
The fact that Megatron was out of commission was the reason Rattrap went in the first place, to take advantage of that! That fact cannot be overlooked.

Again, remember the sequence of events:
- The Maximals are fighting Vehicon drones in the tank drone production factory
- Rattrap is plugged into the computer, having just figured out how to transform, when Megatron takes control of some drones to attack
- when the computer is damaged, the damage spreads, knocks out the power, and damages Megatron. Rattrap is aware of this through his connection to the computer
- he tries to tell the others that Megatron's weak and vulnerable, but they're too angry with him for spoiling their attack to listen
- they berate him behind his back, so Rattrap takes off on his own
- he intially tries to bluff Megatron with the threat of an attack in order to get "noisemakers", but Megatron sees through it
- when he finally agrees to Megatron's terms and gets the weapons, he test fires them, then tells Megatron "word of advice, never trust a rat."
- And here is where Rattrap makes his mistake... he listens to Megatron as Megatron plays on his better nature and sense of honor ("would even a rat attack a defenseless opponent?")
- then Cheetor and co. show up, jump to the wrong conclusions. As they move in to attack Megatron, Rattrap protests that Optimus would never attack a defenseless opponent.

Now if you want to debate the writing and characterization of this episode, here would be the point to do it. Should Rattrap really have fired on Nightscream to protect Megatron? Would he? Nightscream isn't exactly a long-time friend, and he had been the one talking about cutting Rattrap loose, but he's a fellow Maximal. Was Rattrap feeling so overwrought at this point (he certainly sounds like he is) that he just reacted in desperation? It happens to people.

The point is that the questionable actions in the episode aren't the sequence of events that lead up to and include Rattrap going to Megatron and getting weapons. Despite how Synjo characterizes it, Rattrap is not turning traitor. The episode makes it VERY clear that his intention is to take out Megatron then and there, and that there is a limited amount of time to take advantage of Megatron's weakness, and that no one else believes Rattrap when he tells them about Megatron's condition. So he acts on his own. And shows considerable guts in trying to bluff Megatron for the very weapons he needs to take Megatron out.
Last edited by andersonh1 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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