All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[Dominic]

Most of the plot-based complaints about AHM could be easily explained away. (Most of them actually are by logic and implication.) I will concede that the pacing was a bit of a problem. Prime's quick recover is an example of this. But, as it was thematically consistent, I can forgive it.

Action hero Spike is the low point.

The difference being, Sunstreaker agrees the first time. There is no way Hunter could actually *force* Sunstreaker to show him how to be a Headmaster. Sunstreaker could have just said, "screw that, just kill me". But no, he tells Hunter what he needs to do.

I just kind of put that down to Sunstreaker being confused/addled. (And, really, who would not be under those circumstances?)

I don't agree. With what AHM#14 abridges and alters with that scene, it drastically changes the perception of those events from Devastation #3. Again, in one instance we've got Sunstreaker being agreeable to Hunter's proposal, and in the other it's cut in such a way to make it seem like Hunter is ignoring Sunstreaker's wishes.

This is a question of certain points being played up or down as needed. See the "ongoing" thread for more on this.

Sunstreaker is capable of making moral distinctions though, even as a sociopath. How else could he make the distinction between Autobot and Decepticon and join one as apposed to the other?

It may have been a simple matter of convenience. He could have been living in an Autobot held area, and joined them when it became obvious he had to join somebody. This is not unusual with other political questions. For example, a friend of mine works in a hospital, and is against Obama's health care plan on the basis that it could prove financially harmful to his employer, and by extension to him. He does not care about the free-market question, or any of the other high-end questions. At a basic level, he sees his interests as being threatened.

Along similar lines, if you live near a site for say...a charter school, and you run a convenience store, yout are not going to be happy about that charter school because your store is the one the kids will steal from. But, if your kid goes to a charter school in another city, you might be okay with that one.

Principle could take a back seat to convenience. I tend to assume something like this happened with Sunstreaker.

Before the trauma, yes. After...? It's impossible to say how much his mental state was effected exactly.

But, the effect was clearly great, and probably not for the best.

You were the one that said:
Maybe Sunstreaker wanted to keep his hands clean, literally and metaphorically. This would be consistent with his portrayal in "Coda", as seeing himself as heroic.

Heroes do not get muck on their hands. And, Sunstreaker would not want to be *seen* by others as being getting his hands dirty.

Hunter wasn't the cause of the experience though. Machination did it to him and Hunter. Two victims.

I am not saying it makes Sunstreaker a nice guy. But, it does make sense that Sunny would have a problem with the guy who was an intimate part of his humiliation.

Dom was worried that big parts of this weren't going to stick, and that's looking increasingly likely. The only good thing coming is Last Stand of the Wreckers and maybe that Bumblebee book.

Agreed.

TF is reminding me uncomfortably of DDP's run of "GI Joe". The series looks to be increasingly characterized by radical shifts in direction, happening in rapid succession. Major and minor points will be re/de-emphasized at random. All we need now are "fix" stories that try to set things back the way they were before the book radically changed directly.


Dom
-wonders if Roche can live up to expectations.

[Shockwave]

It's impossible to say how much his mental state was effected exactly.

Uh... no it's not. It's very CLEARLY illustrated how much his mental state was affected and I would even argue that showing that was the whole point of #14. As I've said before, Sunstreaker's reaction might not be the typical one, but such reactions have been known to happen. And let's face it, is it really that tough to believe that of all the Autobots that Sunstreaker would be the one to have the over the top irrational reaction? And where is it written that characters HAVE to have the same reaction to things as everyone else? People don't react the same way to things and it's not really that unbelieveable that Sunstreaker would react differently than some of his fellow Autobots would. Or even some humans for that matter.

[Sparky Prime]

Most of the plot-based complaints about AHM could be easily explained away.

If they could easily be explained away, they wouldn't be such glaring problems.

I just kind of put that down to Sunstreaker being confused/addled. (And, really, who would not be under those circumstances?)

What? How could Sunstreaker possibly be confused/addled by Hunter's proposal to become a Headmaster? Hunter has no idea what to do and Sunstreaker is the only one to talk him through it. And of course Hunter even asks Sunstreaker if he's got "room for one more in there". There was no way Sunstreaker was confused about it, he clearly knew what Hunter was doing.

This is a question of certain points being played up or down as needed. See the "ongoing" thread for more on this.

No, it's a question of McCarthy putting the spin he wants on the story to explain sudden characterization shifts.

It may have been a simple matter of convenience. He could have been living in an Autobot held area, and joined them when it became obvious he had to join somebody.

"Megatron: Origin" shows Sunstreaker was in Kaon, wanting to be a part of the illegal Gladiator games that Megatron was using to recruit members to his cause. He was right there at the very birth of the Decepticons.

Heroes do not get muck on their hands. And, Sunstreaker would not want to be *seen* by others as being getting his hands dirty.

And yet, his hands would still be dirty. Sunstreaker himself would still know that he did.

Uh... no it's not. It's very CLEARLY illustrated how much his mental state was affected and I would even argue that showing that was the whole point of #14.

I don't agree that is any measure of how much his mental state was affected. Clearly he was affected, but like I said, it's impossible to say for sure to what degree.

[Shockwave]

Uh... no it's not. It's very CLEARLY illustrated how much his mental state was affected and I would even argue that showing that was the whole point of #14.

I don't agree that is any measure of how much his mental state was affected. Clearly he was affected, but like I said, it's impossible to say for sure to what degree.

What do you need, a freakin brick to fall on you? That whole story was nothing but "look how fucked in the head Sunstreaker is". Ok, even if I grant you that, you still can't ignore the rest of the IDW books. He's CLEARLY suicidal in Devastation, and he's CLEARLY genocidal in AHM. Those are specific illustrations directly showing how much his mental state was affected. Period. And I'm not giving you #14, that CLEARLY shows that the trauma of having his head blown off AGAIN while destroying an assload of instecticons has locked him into reliving the Machination trauma over and over and over indefinately.

By the way, the sky is blue.

[andersonh1]

He's going to be really screwed up now. According to Continuum, he's still alive at the end of "Replay". He just keeps reliving what happened to him while laying in that canyon among the Swarm corpses. Nasty.

[Sparky Prime]

What do you need, a freakin brick to fall on you? That whole story was nothing but "look how fucked in the head Sunstreaker is". Ok, even if I grant you that, you still can't ignore the rest of the IDW books. He's CLEARLY suicidal in Devastation, and he's CLEARLY genocidal in AHM. Those are specific illustrations directly showing how much his mental state was affected. Period. And I'm not giving you #14, that CLEARLY shows that the trauma of having his head blown off AGAIN while destroying an assload of instecticons has locked him into reliving the Machination trauma over and over and over indefinately.

By the way, the sky is blue.

There's no need to get impertinent. And you seem to be misunderstanding my point.

I did, in fact, already say that "clearly he was affected". There is no getting around that. However, none of this clearly tells us to what degree his mental state may have been altered by the trauma. As Dom is fond of pointing out, he is supposed to be a sociopath with a great deal of vanity and arrogance. And it's understandable he'd be suicidal while he was being tortured in Devastation, and being used against his own comrades. He probably saw death as the only way out, until Hunter gave him another option. And the genocide thing, I've already argued my views enough in this thread. So yes, again, I agree CLEARLY he was affected by the trauma but to what DEGREE is hard to say with certainty given his preexisting personality traits.

[Shockwave]

No, I understood your point. What I was illustrating WAS the degrees. SUICIDAL is a DEGREE. Homocidal is a DEGREE. Genocidal is a DEGREE. Seriously, what do you want a pie chart? With nice pretty graphs and a legend down in the corner? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on these forums. I really just think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I tell you what: Why don't YOU write a story then if this is so horribly bad? I'll even give you a start: Just go ahead and rewrite AHM the way YOU wanted it to be and the rest of us will see how it stacks up.

*turns to wall* "So... how's that brick workin' out for ya?"

[Sparky Prime]

No, I understood your point. What I was illustrating WAS the degrees. SUICIDAL is a DEGREE. Homocidal is a DEGREE. Genocidal is a DEGREE. Seriously, what do you want a pie chart? With nice pretty graphs and a legend down in the corner? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on these forums. I really just think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I tell you what: Why don't YOU write a story then if this is so horribly bad? I'll even give you a start: Just go ahead and rewrite AHM the way YOU wanted it to be and the rest of us will see how it stacks up.

*turns to wall* "So... how's that brick workin' out for ya?"

Again, when he was suicidal, he was being tortured at the time and being used as a weapon against his friends and he had no way to escape. Of course he'd be suicidal in that kind of situation, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who wouldn't be. But that, in and of itself, is not an indicator of the degree of his mental state. That's just the result of situation he was currently in at the time. However, presented with another option, a way to fight back (thanks to Hunter), Sunstreaker took it, clearly indicating he was willing to explore other options before suicide. And the others I've already discussed a great deal worth.

And seriously, what's with the attitude? I'm just explaining my point of view (with out the condescending attitude about pie charts and bricks I might point out) on the topic that you called into question, and here you are accusing me of 'arguing just for the sake of arguing'? No, I'm discussing the topic, seems to me that you're the one being argumentative with this attitude you're presenting.

What would me rewriting AHM supposed to prove exactly? That I could do a better (or worst) job of it? How is that supposed to matter exactly? It wouldn't change the AHM that we got in the first place.

[Shockwave]

Ok, first off, YOU'RE the one who mentioned the DEGREE of Sunstreaker's mental state. All I was doing was pointing out how blatantly obvious it was in the story. My comment about pie charts (regardless of how douchy it may have sounded) was actually to ask you exactly how much more clarification you would need on that. Unless you're using some outlandishly different definition of the word degree. I've already outlined multiple times how this was clearly displayed and at this point I can only conclude that you just refuse to see what's there or that you're just hellbound and determined to flat out disagree. The rest of us get it, you don't. Fine. I'm just going to leave it at that as, just like in the Starscream discussion, I'm done beating my head against a wall.

Which brings me to the issue of my attitude. I'm irritated on several levels not the least of which is the fact that I, the single least educated person on these boards, is the one having to try multiple times to explain something so simple to someone I know is more intelligent than this. Seriously, you're smarter than this, I expect more of you and you're making yourself look ridiculous by even bringing stuff like this up. Another thing contributing to this is the fact that I work in a call center. It's my job to explain things to people day in and day out. Most of it is simple stuff and most people understand it the first time I explain it. Some people require some rewordings, but then there's that 1%... The ones who just refuse point blank to understand anything I tell them. It's so frustrating and just gets under my skin so much to have people refuse to understand such simple concepts. Oh, and you wanna know the really scary part of that? THESE PEOPLE ARE TEACHERS!! And then to run into that same problem here is... just that much more irritating because at least at work I'm getting paid for it. I just find it frustrating to explain something so obvious to someone who I know is smart enough to get it but just flat out refuses to.

And while we're on the issue of attitudes, let's talk about yours shall we? I've noticed that a lot of your posts start off with the words "I don't agree" or "I disagree". It has gotten to the point that I can't help wondering if you ever agree with anyone on anything. Evar!! Especially when you bring up stuff like this that's so glaringly obvious. It really just makes me think that you're just disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. I can only recall you using the words "I agree" once. In the entire few months that I've been here. I never see you acknowledge anyone else's point. Generally speaking, although I do need to backtrack a little on that last statement since you and I were actually on the same page with the whole "character development" thing in the comics thread. You also never acknowledge when people see your point and I never EVER see you crack a joke, which is nothing short of suspicious. Seriously, crack a joke. I don't trust people with no sense of humor. Lighten up, quit taking this all so seriously. It's a hobby, start acting like you enjoy it. I know I've used a lot of absolutes and I know there are exceptions, but the observations are still valid.

As for the rewriting comment... Sorry, I do need to apologize for that. I was tired and was getting more irritated as I was replying that I thought "he's done nothing but bitch about AHM since day one" and then busted out with my "you write it then" comment. It was 100% douchebag and I apologize for it. This is why I shouldn't post after midnight.

Shockwave
-Started this after midnight last night, cleaned it up this morning.

[Dominic]

No, I understood your point. What I was illustrating WAS the degrees. SUICIDAL is a DEGREE. Homocidal is a DEGREE. Genocidal is a DEGREE. Seriously, what do you want a pie chart? With nice pretty graphs and a legend down in the corner? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on these forums. I really just think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

That pie-chard idea is pretty ridiculous, but I do not know if it is the most ridiculous thing I have seen.

(My intentional misreading of the comment does not rate as too ridiculous, right?)


Anyway, I have barely slept, and am off to NEFX. (I will be luck to be asleep in 12 hours.)

Dom
-no, really. Gonna be a long weekend.