Comics are awesome.

[Shockwave]

Point is! The mainline Spider-Man books *should* be written well enough that one doesn't immediately need to know all 100 years of Spider-Man history to enjoy the book. All one really needs to know is that Spider-Man is Peter Parker, he has this set of powers, and here are some of the craaaazy bad guys he fights. The fact that Marvel's mainline books were failing so hard at doing this (mostly due to 90s Comic Writing) that they needed to create an entire new continuity says something, to me.

What you said. I also wanted to get All Star Superman when that came out, but my pull was too big as it was at the time.

[Onslaught Six]

Funny you bring that up, since I finished it. It's...different than what I was expecting, somehow. Maybe I just don't "get" Superman as a whole, but the book struck me as a pure manifestation of everything that is stupid and ridiculous about Superman--and possibly, by extension, DC comics or superhero comics in general. Maybe there's some kind of deep point Grant Morrison was trying to make, about how superhero comics *are* ridiculous and stupid--kind of operating in a reverse Watchmen fashion or something--and maybe it's lost on me. That said, it's an 'enjoyable' kind of stupid, if that makes any sense. Lex Luthor's big plan is to force Superman to fly through the sun which overcharges the Kryptonian cells in his body somehow, and then he gets Crazy Space Cancer and is dying. The bit with the Unknown Superman of the Future was an interesting turn and, maybe I'm gullible, but I didn't expect it. I dunno. If you're interested in reading it, though, the first TPB is only something like twelve bucks.

Funnily enough, my discussion above basically hinges on one thing--the guy writing it! Dom's descriptions of Morrison's Final Crisis seem to indicate that Morrison's point is, he's saying "Look how horrible comics have become!" by 'writing more bad comics.' I'm still not sure if All-Star Superman is supposed to be like that or not.

Atomic Robo And The Dogs Of War (the second TPB) came in the mail yesterday night, apparently. I can't wait to dig into it. Robo's right up there in my list of Favourite Comics Ever, right next to Transmetropolitan and now Sandman. I wonder if I should go in the comic shop, after an entire summer of absences and not picking up the Robo v3 books I ordered and see if they actually ever came in...

[Shockwave]

That makes total sense. I mean, there are different kinds of "stupid" and stupid doesn't always necessarily mean bad. I think Superman runs into two problems, at least from a writing perspective: 1 he's so iconic as the model for which other super heroes are based that regardless of what you do with him he's ultimately going to wind up being a cliche' of himself. And 2 he's so powerful as a character that you either A. have to create a ridonkulously powerful villain to fight him or B. invariably have the villain attack the people he cares about which gets old fast. I did like what a friend of mine said about the first issue "there was no reason to spend more than one page on Superman's origin".

[Dominic]

The mainline Spider-Man books *should* be written well enough that one doesn't immediately need to know all 100 years of Spider-Man history to enjoy the book. All one really needs to know is that Spider-Man is Peter Parker, he has this set of powers, and here are some of the craaaazy bad guys he fights. The fact that Marvel's mainline books were failing so hard at doing this (mostly due to 90s Comic Writing) that they needed to create an entire new continuity says something, to me.

The problem is that keeping a book at the basic level gets redundant very very quickly. The problem in the 90s is that comics became so loud, and the events so forced and artificial, that constant change became the status quo.

Another problem that started in the 90s is the short runs that writers have. Granted, many of the definitive runs of yesteryear are not quite as long as people remember them. (I was suprised to find just how short Michelinie's "Ironman" run was.) But, beyond short tenurs for writers, their work is undone quickly. In early '04, Ironman's identity was well and publicly known. Within a year, post "DisAssemble", it was secret again....then in "Civil War", it was public again. Noting sticks. The 10 minute rule O6 mentions effectively becomes the shelf-life of a comic.

Funnily enough, my discussion above basically hinges on one thing--the guy writing it! Dom's descriptions of Morrison's Final Crisis seem to indicate that Morrison's point is, he's saying "Look how horrible comics have become!" by 'writing more bad comics.' I'm still not sure if All-Star Superman is supposed to be like that or not.

I kind of get that sense from "All Star Superman" as well, that Morrison if flipping off the readers. The weight in the lab that Superman lifts, as well as a few other points in the comic, definitely make me wonder if Morrison is deliberately wrting something bad. After reading "Countdown", several tie-ins, and "Final Crisis", I am 100% certain those were intentionally bad.

Dom
-not to post more thoughts on AHM 14.

[Sparky Prime]

It was Shane McCarthy, the guy who wrote all of AHM 1-12, who wrote the Sunstreaker story, and--even though it wasn't said--that's exactly what the debate is about. Sparky doesn't like how McCarthy is (somewhat) retconning parts of the IDWverse, and I do, because it mostly sucked anyway before and McCarthy rules and totally knows how to write TF.

My problem with McCarthy's writing isn't just that he has retconned parts of the IDWverse, but I've gone over all of that in the AHM discussions so I'm not going to get into that much detail about that here. Really, some of his retcons wouldn't be so bad if he had actually explained how and/or why some of the changes he made occurred. Instead, he barely explains anything at all and he doesn't follow up on many points he brought up over the course of the story and that just comes off as being a poor writer in general.

And didn't you say you hadn't actually read what came before AHM?

The fact that Marvel's mainline books were failing so hard at doing this (mostly due to 90s Comic Writing) that they needed to create an entire new continuity says something, to me.

They didn't 'need' to create a new continuity... Ultimate Spider-Man was actually originally supposed to be a one shot miniseries, retelling Spider-Man's origins re-imagined for a much more modern day setting and to try to entice new younger readers. It turned out to be so popular though that they kept going with it.

[BWprowl]

I was told something once, I think by a film student--or maybe it was someone in a documentary, I really don't know--called the Ten Minute Rule.

Basically, in any given storytelling medium--movies, television, and likely comic books--the viewer/reader should be able to pick literally any point in any story and start reading from there, and within ten minutes, know what is going on. And think about it--this 'works.'

You ever flip through TV and see an interesting movie, and it's already halfway over, but you watch the rest of it anyway? And within ten minutes of coming in the middle of Act 2, you suddenly already have figured out most of the plot.

Y'know, it's funny. Generally, I'm the kinda guy who *hates* coming into a movie even fifteen minutes late, simply because I dislike the idea of having missed *anything*. But here I am, up to my ass in DC books lately, and I only started following them a couple years ago (although frankly, the internet and Wikipedia make catching up on key points a breeze). Furthermore, I recently finished watching up to episode 66 of One Piece on DVD, then jumped straight to the streaming episodes starting with episode 391. And I really didn't miss a beat (of course, this can be chalked up to the nature of One Piece itself more than anything else, but my point about myself still stands). What was my point, anyway? That I don't like to come into anything partway, except when I do? Yeah...

[Onslaught Six]

My problem with McCarthy's writing isn't just that he has retconned parts of the IDWverse, but I've gone over all of that in the AHM discussions so I'm not going to get into that much detail about that here. Really, some of his retcons wouldn't be so bad if he had actually explained how and/or why some of the changes he made occurred. Instead, he barely explains anything at all and he doesn't follow up on many points he brought up over the course of the story and that just comes off as being a poor writer in general.

Eh. The few dangling threads left and minor retcons don't bother me much because the core story is well done. I don't really need to know why Astrotrain is in his G1 body now--I don't 'care,' either. I'll just pretend he was always in that body.

And didn't you say you hadn't actually read what came before AHM?

When it was originally released, no, but when I started reading AHM and it actually started drawing on those older bits with Sunstreaker and such, I went back and at least skimmed them--but they mostly sucked anyway.

Y'know, it's funny. Generally, I'm the kinda guy who *hates* coming into a movie even fifteen minutes late, simply because I dislike the idea of having missed *anything*.

I tend to not worry about it, because I'm the kind of guy who will watch movies multiple times. I've seen Fight Club like eighty times. I've seen TFTM a bunch, too. (Well, the first half. The good half. After Galvy kills Starscream, it kinda starts to lose speed and become cruddy.)

[Shockwave]

That I don't like to come into anything partway, except when I do? Yeah...

I'm kind of the same way only worse. Example: I watch Transformers beginning to end every year starting on my birthday (early April). I've had my friend's copy of the complete Invader Zim on loan for like 3 months because I can't watch anything else until the Transformersthon is finished. I'm halfway through Energon and after that is Cybertron, Animated, then the Movies (ROTF will probably be on DVD by then). THEN I can start watching Zim. I haven't even watched my Matrix of Leadership set yet because I have to watch the rest of it first. I'm weird.

[Sparky Prime]

Eh. The few dangling threads left and minor retcons don't bother me much because the core story is well done. I don't really need to know why Astrotrain is in his G1 body now--I don't 'care,' either. I'll just pretend he was always in that body.

If you look at the TF Wiki section on the Discrepancies in this series, you can see it is anything but a few and minor issues. And the core story is hardly well done such as the whole thing being painfully drawn out as one example. Seriously, I think they should have limited it to 6 issues because 12 was unnecessarily long.

When it was originally released, no, but when I started reading AHM and it actually started drawing on those older bits with Sunstreaker and such, I went back and at least skimmed them--but they mostly sucked anyway.

Skimming is not reading. And they are a heck of a lot better than AHM turned out to be.

[Onslaught Six]

If you look at the TF Wiki section on the Discrepancies in this series, you can see it is anything but a few and minor issues. And the core story is hardly well done such as the whole thing being painfully drawn out as one example. Seriously, I think they should have limited it to 6 issues because 12 was unnecessarily long.

I think the length of the series was fine--if it were six issues, we wouldn't have gotten awesome things like Reflector pulling humans apart and then being disappointed that they don't go back together.

Anyway, a *lot* of the stuff the Wiki guys complain about are kinda pointless, and definitely aren't the fault of AHM entirely--for example, the entire section on redesigns. Now we've got *another* series coming with stupidly pointless redesigns, and these ones don't even look cool. Others include AHM not picking up on threads left in Furman's stories, which isn't surprising to me.

If anything, though, most of this can't be blamed on McCarthy--he had a story to tell, and he told it. It's Tipton, the editor, who's to blame for this. He's the guy who's supposed to make sure what everyone writes meshes together--that's what an editor does.

Skimming is not reading.

Maybe skimming isn't reading to you. I should probably mention that I don't skim the same as other people do, because I am weird.

And they are a heck of a lot better than AHM turned out to be.

Permits mes to disagrees.