What's your opinion on, Live action TF movies & movie toys.

[Onslaught Six]

and he basically had to beg the teacher into giving him a pass there (which says nothing good about his teacher).

That's not fair, JT. Just ask yourself--what would Jesus do?

They weren't remotely clear in the film what he wanted to do with that energy, but they made it clear that by using the harvester he'd be destroying the planet.

I don't think it's implied that actually using the Sun Harvester that it would actually literally destroy Earth, like, make it explode. (Although it's a Michael Bay movie so that's entirely possible.) But it *would* definitely do that to the sun and the Earth kind of needs that to exist, so either way I guess you're right.

They did it so well that one has to entirely discount it. Apparently they seeded Alice into that college BEFORE Sam gets there on the assumption that Sam actually will show up, and that he'd end up in her specific dorm, and that if he did end up in her dorm that he'd be interested in her, and that if he were interested in her that she could seduce him, and if he were interested and she seduced him that she'd be able to then extract the Cybertronian knowledge he had in his brain, although that of course also assumed that the Decepticons knew that AFTER Sam started packing for college that he'd end up being struck by the shard of the Allspark and that it'd affect him in that way, even though nobody actually knew the shard existed, so they must have been tracking him for revenge alone, but if they were able to find out so much about his plans they probably had a 'Con close enough to his personal life to have just killed him at any point before ROTF even started. And the Decepticons had to pull that all off while running and hiding from the Autobots and humans. What a stupid scenario. May as well chalk it up to an evil wizard.

I never said Alice was a good character. (Hell, honestly, my original argument revolved entirely around Grindor grabbing the car they had.)

I'm no expert on Bay films, having stomached only a few, but I cannot remember anything remotely like that in his previous films. He's more direct usually IMO, I suspect that was Ehren Kreuger or Orctzman (I can see it being Orci / Kurtzman based on some of the more ridiculous bullshit they crammed into the later portions of Hercules, Xena, and Alias).

I think I was going for a "SAM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN THE STORY" viewpoint. Maybe the "robot heaven" visions were injected by the writers, but Sam dying and miraculously being saved? All Michael Bay. (The fucking 'reverence' that Sam's death is given in ROTF compared to Prime's death is just fucking disrespectful. Sam gets a big thing with slow mo and melodramatic bullshit music. Prime gets a sword through his chest and fucking 'dropped' by army helicopters. Not set down, *dropped.*)

They showed no sign of him having a job, and I don't remember the film showing that he hadn't sold a fraction of the crap he was selling, but even if that were the case, for all we know it was just as likely from his bar-mitzvah money and he sold his Nintendo and conned his neighbors.

He still has his Xbox in his room though. (Why do I know this?) Anyway, maybe that's what happened. It's hard to tell. (Man, are we really doing this? It's like half this thread has been pointing out what terrible people everyone in the films are.)

I still don't know why since all Prime did was punch the shit out of him and Mortal Kombat Fatality him. (Although some of the adaptations take care of that nicely, like the ones where Prime 'opens up a black hole and throws The Fallen into it.')

So nobody else could pick up The Fallen except Optimus, then? That's not a better fix!

It was the "opening up a black hole" thing that was important. (No, I don't know how being a Prime gives Optimus the ability to do that. Maybe the Matrix did it. Shut up.)

Incidentally, Peter's motivation for going to the wrestling match in the film is to get some cash so he can buy a car and impress the girl, which is pretty much Sam's whole motivation at the beginning of TF1!

The only difference is that Peter is willing to work for his money!

Not really! I mean, he sees a get-money-quick scheme of "Oh, I'll abuse my superpowers to kick ass at wrestling!"

One thing I go back and forth on is how the promoter stiffs Peter on the money, and *that's* Peter's motivation for not stopping the robber in the first place. His own little "Fuck you!" to the promoter. In other adaptations, his response is usually unrelated apathy--particularly the 90s cartoon; the cop is chasing the robber and Spidey's response is just, "Hey, I'm a wrestler, not a cop!" All, not my problem! Screw that! (In fact, now that I think about it--in any other version of the story, does Peter even find the guy who killed Uncle Ben? I seem to remember in the cartoon, it might not even be the same guy.)

Talk is cheap, we don't see the Autobots trying to contain the Decepticons' attacks away from the population in "Mission city", aside from Ironhide's flip which could have incinerated that woman for all he knew. And look at Optimus saving Sam from falling off that building, Sam is falling AFTER the chopper, Prime doesn't make any pretense to save the guys in the chopper that might have survived that shot NOR the people in the office buildings around there, he just goes after Sam and the Allspark, and the rest of the humans eat it in the face for all he cares. Hell, the Autobots don't even help fighting Blackout after Sam is out of the picture! And the little fighting Ironhide does with Blackout involves putting EVERYBODY at greater risk!

It's amazing that once you put it under a little scrutiy, the Autobots as "heroic" characters is TOTALLY thrown out in the films. There is barely the most token amount of effort put in to try and make them seem like good guys. The collateral damage caused by the Autobots fighting the Decepticons is actually usually 'worse' than if the Autobots had just left the Decepticons alone. (Seriously, what was Demolishor doing in the beginning? Or Sideways, for that matter? Demolishor I could see, that dude was huge and in a populated area, but Sideways was just chilling on the side of the road.)

Evil wizardry, remember?

I guess so. MOVIE MAGIC!

Then again, unlike the Allspark, while it's reviving Optimus it also brings Sam back to life, and it's part of the power system for the Harvester, so it's not really consistently the same.

The idea of "Energon" and how it supposedly works in the Movie universe is just poorly defined and doesn't make any sense. Energy from the Allspark can kill a Transformer, but it can also bring them back to life somehow? Whatever. (Also, was that what happened to Sam? I thought he just came back to life. Maybe he didn't even die, he just went unconcious. Or did someone defib him?)

Then how was she already situated in the exact right place well ahead of time when Sam arrives? It's a thought-hole.

I had a thought! It's entirely possible that Alice actually is impersonating a girl Sam goes to school with. Sure, we know that there's a plot hole where Leo "discovers" something about Alice and is running off to tell Sam about it when he walks in on her attempted rape--but what he discovered was cut out. Maybe he found the body! Maybe the Decepticons sent Alice (whatever her/his Transformer name is) to infiltrate, and s/he did so by finding out what dorm Sam was supposed to be in, tracking down a girl also in the dorm, and killing her and taking her place. (It wouldn't be hard to find a standardly "hot" girl that was dorming near Sam; remember, Leo hacked the dorm files so that ALL the dorms around them were filled with hot girls.)

Why am I justifying this? This is dumb.

Ouch, doesn't paint the Autobots in a very heroic light. You're right too, but it makes the Autobots' claims self-serving, they are nearly as bad as the Decepticons, they want to repair their world in their image. If not for Optimus Prime telling Sam to jam the Allspark into his chest to destroy it, the Autobots wouldn't have a shred of nobility about their actions in this situation -- they leave Bumblebee to twist in the wind, they barely give a shit about Jazz being torn in 2, they have no compunction about destroying the humans' property to enact their goals. Christ, that's depressing, I'm glad I'm at the end of my post finally, that makes me dislike these movies even more.

I do like that Jazz interjects and tells Prime that they should save Bumblebee. I think you can kind of see it in Prime, too, that he wants to. He doesn't want to let his friend be tortured. But they can't risk it; stopping the Decepticons is too important. And he hopes that the humans will just come to their senses. It's stuff like *that* that makes me say the first movie is pretty decent. It's definitely got less problems than ROTF or DOTM, anyway. Sam's centrality to the film works 'in its favour' there, it really does. It's the sequels where things become dumb.

John Connor explains early in T2 that his whole life has been his mother training him for the coming apocalypse in survival, defense, strategy, and so forth.

His mom was placed in an insane asylum early in his life and he was in foster care. And he really doesn't show any signs of real training in T2 or T3. He just makes it up as they run away.

When John is hacking into the ATM:
"Where's you learn how to do all this stuff, anyway?"
"From my mom. My real mom, I mean. She's a complete psycho. That's why she's up at Pescadero. It's a mental institute, OK? She tried to blow up a computer factory, but she got shot and arrested...She's a total loser."

Later in the film:
"I grew up in places like this, so I just thought that's how people lived - riding around in helicopters. Learning how to blow shit up."

Several times it's made clear that John was at least several years old when his mother was arrested. (In T2 he's explicitly ten, since it takes place ten years after T2, but he looks and acts way too old--maybe a byproduct of his upbringing.) I would think maybe he was seven or eight at the time she got arrested. Anyway, it's explicitly said that John was raised by Sarah to be the Future Leader Of Mankind and she taught him all kinds of shit, obviously hanging around with all kinds of outcast gun nuts and survivalists. (One has to wonder how that might affect the timeline, and probably/possibly explains why some things in Salvation appear different from the Future Scenes we see in T1 and T2.)

Luke couldn't have had much training from Obi-Wan. A few hours maybe? And that from what we saw was just with a lightsaber. Yet he handles himself well with a blaster in the Deathstar and later in an X-Wing to blow the thing up.

Hey, he used to blast Womprats in his T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters. Give the kid some credit.

He's not going to get $2000 for heirlooms that nobody wants. The college thing, as I previously said, they only mention that the government pays for it. Not that they got him in as well.

As someone who went to college, all they care about is cash. If you keep paying them, they don't give much of a damn whether you're good enough or not. The government flashes them a big cushy $500,000 or so grant to do whatever they want with, and all they have to do is string along one measly slacker douchebag? Sounds like a deal to me.

With the All Spark gone, we cannot return life to our planet. And fate has yielded its reward: a new world to call home. We live among its people now, hiding in plain sight, but watching over them in secret, waiting, protecting. I have witnessed their capacity for courage, and though we are worlds apart, like us, there's more to them than meets the eye. I am Optimus Prime, and I send this message to any surviving Autobots taking refuge among the stars. We are here. We are waiting.

I don't see anything here that makes a clear statement as to Cybertron's habitability.

Our planet was once a powerful empire, peaceful and just, until we were betrayed by Megatron, leader of the Decepticons. All who defied them were destroyed. Our war finally consumed the planet, and the All Spark was lost to the stars. Megatron followed it to Earth, where Captain Witwicky found him...

With the All Spark gone, we cannot return life to our planet.

As far as the Autobots are concerned, there's the handful of them out in space (there are seriously only shown about 15 Autobots in ALL the movies put together, as opposed to around eighty billion Decepticons), most of which are already with Prime on Earth and half of which die before the end of the series. There's no point in rebuilding Cybertron because they can't restore life to it without the Allspark (The Matrix is only ever shown reviving dead Transformers; it never creates new ones, unlike the Allspark) and Cybertron's just too damn big to bother restoring so a dozen Autobots can hang out on it...doing nothing.

If there is indeed life still on Cybertron (I know you keep bringing up those lights in DOTM) then that's a big fucking plothole in DOTM; at the very least the first film makes it very clear that Cybertron is supposed to be uninhabitable or at least deserted due to a distinct 'lack of Transformers still alive.' In fact, it seems like at the end of the first film, Prime isn't even sure if there are any other Autobots in the entire Universe left alive.

The primary function of the Sun Harvester is to recharge the Allspark right? And what did they want to use the Allspark for...?

Woah woah woah, we're NEVER told that. All we're ever told is that the Sun Harvesters are used to collect energy...somehow. The films never go into the details (surprise!) and it's only ever said that the Matrix of Leadership is used to turn the thing on. (Incidentally, how does Prime get it back for DOTM? He just kind of blows up the Sun Harvester with the Matrix still in it.)

Okay, I looked it up and apparently that's Comics Bullshit, which I THOUGHT we established we weren't using when talking about the movie canon--because obviously nobody involved with the films came up with that. Because if we were going to pull Movie Comics Stuff in, then we could just use Reign of Starscream to "prove" that Cybertron is still inhabited. (In fact, you probably almost could count it, since Starscream gets his tattoos in it...)

Because Sam was still at his home on the other side of the country when he discovered the Allspark shard? The Decepticons would have had enough time to get Alice in place by the time he made it to his college.

You know, I never thought about it but that's another really dumb plothole too. Sam's college is (supposedly Princeton but I don't think it's ever stated) supposed to be in Pennsylvania, but his parents are packing up the car when they leave their house in California...and then arrive in the same car at the college. Did they seriously just drive the whole way across the country? The film's plotline implies that that's all 'in the same day,' I'm pretty sure Sam is even wearing the same clothes when he leaves the house and later when he arrives at school. (Not sure about his parents, I didn't pay attention to what they were wearing.)

So you'd say the Autobots aren't heroic just because we (arguably) don't see them actively saving individuals? The Autobots are saving millions of individual lives on Earth by staying to defend it from threats like terrorism or the Decepticons. How is that different? And what reason would they have to stay to defend Mars? No one lives there for it to need defending.

But the Decepticons would be on Mars. They're there to get the Allspark, and later, to kill Decepticons.

EDIT: BUNDYRUGBY SYNDROME

[Sparky Prime]

When John is hacking into the ATM:
"Where's you learn how to do all this stuff, anyway?"
"From my mom. My real mom, I mean. She's a complete psycho. That's why she's up at Pescadero. It's a mental institute, OK? She tried to blow up a computer factory, but she got shot and arrested...She's a total loser."

Later in the film:
"I grew up in places like this, so I just thought that's how people lived - riding around in helicopters. Learning how to blow shit up."

Woo, he's shown to hack an ATM. Maybe if we saw him rig something to blow up by himself or something I'd find it believable but as it is in the movies, he just doesn't seem to have the training he claims to.

Anyway, it's explicitly said that John was raised by Sarah to be the Future Leader Of Mankind and she taught him all kinds of shit, obviously hanging around with all kinds of outcast gun nuts and survivalists. (One has to wonder how that might affect the timeline, and probably/possibly explains why some things in Salvation appear different from the Future Scenes we see in T1 and T2.)

Yet he doesn't know things like a secret stash of weapons where his mother was supposedly buried. You'd think if she was training him to be the Future Leader, she might, you know, tell him that sort of thing. And the only weapon he has on him at the start of T3 is a paintball gun? Really?

Hey, he used to blast Womprats in his T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters. Give the kid some credit.

The Womprats don't shoot back. It's a whole lot different in a combat situation.

As someone who went to college, all they care about is cash. If you keep paying them, they don't give much of a damn whether you're good enough or not. The government flashes them a big cushy $500,000 or so grant to do whatever they want with, and all they have to do is string along one measly slacker douchebag? Sounds like a deal to me.

State Colleges, sure, Ivy League is a bit different.

Our planet was once a powerful empire, peaceful and just, until we were betrayed by Megatron, leader of the Decepticons. All who defied them were destroyed. Our war finally consumed the planet, and the All Spark was lost to the stars. Megatron followed it to Earth, where Captain Witwicky found him...

And...? All that means is Cybertron was ravaged by war. It says nothing about the habitability of the planet.

With the All Spark gone, we cannot return life to our planet.

Because the Allspark is explicitly said to be the source of Transformer life. Again, it doesn't speak to the habitability of the planet itself.

As far as the Autobots are concerned, there's the handful of them out in space (there are seriously only shown about 15 Autobots in ALL the movies put together, as opposed to around eighty billion Decepticons), most of which are already with Prime on Earth and half of which die before the end of the series. There's no point in rebuilding Cybertron because they can't restore life to it without the Allspark (The Matrix is only ever shown reviving dead Transformers; it never creates new ones, unlike the Allspark) and Cybertron's just too damn big to bother restoring so a dozen Autobots can hang out on it...doing nothing.

Optimus says they spread out across the galaxy looking for the Allspark. There is no clear indication of how many Autobots are out there or how long it might take them to receive the message Optimus sent out, let alone make their way to Earth. As apposed to the Decepticons already having a huge ship nearby. Not to mention they've apparently been at Earth for decades before the Autobots. But just because we only see a handful of Autobots in the movies, that doesn't mean that's all there are.

And Sentinel wasn't dead. Lennox explained he was in 'sleep mode' because he was out of energon, which the Matrix apparently can also supply... Again just like the Allspark. But if the Matrix is so powerful it can restore a Transformer that is dead, why couldn't it also create new life and thus restore life to Cybertron?

And again, the Decepticons think it's worth it to still rebuild Cybertron even with out the Allspark.

If there is indeed life still on Cybertron (I know you keep bringing up those lights in DOTM) then that's a big fucking plothole in DOTM; at the very least the first film makes it very clear that Cybertron is supposed to be uninhabitable or at least deserted due to a distinct 'lack of Transformers still alive.' In fact, it seems like at the end of the first film, Prime isn't even sure if there are any other Autobots in the entire Universe left alive.

Again, the first movie doesn't make it clear at all whether or not Cybertron is habitable. All Prime talks about is how war consumed the planet. And considering more Autobots and Decepticons keep showing up at Earth in each film, obviously there are still Transformers alive in the universe.

Woah woah woah, we're NEVER told that. All we're ever told is that the Sun Harvesters are used to collect energy...somehow. The films never go into the details (surprise!) and it's only ever said that the Matrix of Leadership is used to turn the thing on. (Incidentally, how does Prime get it back for DOTM? He just kind of blows up the Sun Harvester with the Matrix still in it.)

The first movie establishes the Allspark was the source of Energon, but ROTF tells us the Sun Harvester creates Energon by destroying stars. Why would they need something like that if the Allspark was an unlimited source? I'll grant you it's a bit of a plot hole, but a connection is implied.

And yeah, Prime getting the Matrix back after he blasted it inside the Harvester is another plot hole.

Okay, I looked it up and apparently that's Comics Bullshit, which I THOUGHT we established we weren't using when talking about the movie canon--because obviously nobody involved with the films came up with that. Because if we were going to pull Movie Comics Stuff in, then we could just use Reign of Starscream to "prove" that Cybertron is still inhabited. (In fact, you probably almost could count it, since Starscream gets his tattoos in it...)

Right, then there are the comics which explicitly states that's the purpose of the Sun Harvester. It's more than likely they got that from an early script of ROTF anyway.

But the Decepticons would be on Mars. They're there to get the Allspark, and later, to kill Decepticons.

So what if the Decepticons are on Mars? Once the Allspark is captured/destroyed, what reason would any of them have to stay there? The reason the Autobots stay on Earth is their friendship and willingness to protect the humans, with or with out the Decepticons being there.

[Onslaught Six]

Anyway, it's explicitly said that John was raised by Sarah to be the Future Leader Of Mankind and she taught him all kinds of shit, obviously hanging around with all kinds of outcast gun nuts and survivalists. (One has to wonder how that might affect the timeline, and probably/possibly explains why some things in Salvation appear different from the Future Scenes we see in T1 and T2.)

Yet he doesn't know things like a secret stash of weapons where his mother was supposedly buried. You'd think if she was training him to be the Future Leader, she might, you know, tell him that sort of thing. And the only weapon he has on him at the start of T3 is a paintball gun? Really?

Oh, come on, Terminator 3 sucks and everybody knows it.

The Womprats don't shoot back. It's a whole lot different in a combat situation.

Wow.

State Colleges, sure, Ivy League is a bit different.

This seems like somewhere Dom would come in handy. PAGING DOM.

Because the Allspark is explicitly said to be the source of Transformer life. Again, it doesn't speak to the habitability of the planet itself.

The phrase "return life to our planet" very much implies there is a lack of life. Otherwise they wouldn't be returning life to it. They would just be adding on more.

Optimus says they spread out across the galaxy looking for the Allspark. There is no clear indication of how many Autobots are out there or how long it might take them to receive the message Optimus sent out, let alone make their way to Earth. As apposed to the Decepticons already having a huge ship nearby. Not to mention they've apparently been at Earth for decades before the Autobots. But just because we only see a handful of Autobots in the movies, that doesn't mean that's all there are.

But we also are never shown that there are any 'more' Autobots than what we're shown. In fact, the Wreckers are described as coming with the "second wave of Autobots" which I assume includes Skids, Mudflap, Sideswipe, Jolt and Arcee, plus possibly Mirage and Wheeljack. (The last two, I think, clearly came to Earth after ROTF, since Sam doesn't know them at all, and they need to be introduced, while he never really gets "introduced" to Skids, Mudflap, Sideswipe or Arcee. One of Arcee's only lines in the film is extending an offer of help to Sam, so I'd assume he already knew her.)

"Been on Earth for decades before the Autobots" is debatable since we don't exactly know when Bumblebee came to Earth. (It's always been my preference that he's been there since, at earliest, 1967, so he could scan a brand-new '68 Camaro and become that. But the movies aren't clear either way.)

And Sentinel wasn't dead. Lennox explained he was in 'sleep mode' because he was out of energon, which the Matrix apparently can also supply... Again just like the Allspark.

The only other Transformers it's shown reviving from a "sleep mode" type thing is Jetfire, and it's debatable how much he needed. That said, Megatron was definitely dead. (I still don't understand how the Allspark both kills and revives Megatron. What the hell.)

But if the Matrix is so powerful it can restore a Transformer that is dead, why couldn't it also create new life and thus restore life to Cybertron?

Because it's never shown doing so? Because no character ever states this? In fact, once the Fallen has ahold of it, Prime doesn't seem concerned at all with getting the Matrix back in ROTF. Then he inexplicably has it again in DOTM, and...uses it to revive Sentinel, and that's about it. Prime never once says, "Wow, now that we have the Matrix we can rebuild Cybertron!" Now, whether that's a problem with the characters being dumbasses or not isn't the debate here. Fact is, nobody in the movies says the Matrix can create life. And it's never shown to do that, either. So our only choice is to believe that it can't do that.

Along similar lines, Bumblebee never turns into a plane. Can he do that? He can turn into a car, after all, and other robots (Starscream, Jetfire) can turn into planes. Why can't Bumblebee?

And again, the Decepticons think it's worth it to still rebuild Cybertron even with out the Allspark.

There's a lot more Decepticons than there are Autobots, making it economically and politically viable to do so. Plus, Megatron wants to rule the universe, and if nothing else probably wants the old world as a trophy. Prime and the Autobots have no use for it when they can peacefully hang out on Earth, albeit mostly in secret. Megatron could use Cybertron as an effective base of operations, the Autobots aren't planning on ruling the universe, they just want to live in peace.

Again, the first movie doesn't make it clear at all whether or not Cybertron is habitable. All Prime talks about is how war consumed the planet. And considering more Autobots and Decepticons keep showing up at Earth in each film, obviously there are still Transformers alive in the universe.

But none of them are ever stated as coming from Cybertron, for one, and I already refuted that the first movie doesn't say it's uninhabitable. It totally does!

The first movie establishes the Allspark was the source of Energon, but ROTF tells us the Sun Harvester creates Energon by destroying stars. Why would they need something like that if the Allspark was an unlimited source? I'll grant you it's a bit of a plot hole, but a connection is implied.

It's implied but never stated--at least not in the films themselves. Besides, if they need the Allspark to put the Energon in from the Sun Harvester then what's the point of Fallen trying to turn it on? He doesn't have the Allspark to put it in. As for being an "unlimited source" of Energon, the name outright implies it. ALLspark. ALL the sparks. (Granted, previous drafts called it "The Energon Cube" but that's drafts for you.)

Right, then there are the comics which explicitly states that's the purpose of the Sun Harvester. It's more than likely they got that from an early script of ROTF anyway.

Possibly, but we never get that in the films, and I thought that's all we were counting here.

So what if the Decepticons are on Mars? Once the Allspark is captured/destroyed, what reason would any of them have to stay there? The reason the Autobots stay on Earth is their friendship and willingness to protect the humans, with or with out the Decepticons being there.

They could stay there to fight Autobots. Who would be there to fight Decepticons. Look, Transformers are dumb, they keep going in circles for literally millenia just fighting each other for no real reason.

[Shockwave]

There's really only two possibilities with Cybertron: Life is unable to live there or the conditions are so bad that Life doesn't want to live there. Which in my book is the same thing.

[Sparky Prime]

Oh, come on, Terminator 3 sucks and everybody knows it.

That doesn't negate the point.

Wow.

What? You think hunting would be the same if the animals could shoot back?

This seems like somewhere Dom would come in handy. PAGING DOM.

You ever see "The Social Network"? The Dean really doesn't care how much money the twins family has to give them any special privilege.

The phrase "return life to our planet" very much implies there is a lack of life. Otherwise they wouldn't be returning life to it. They would just be adding on more.

With a civil war that's lasted millions of years, and assuming a majority of whatever remains of the planets population has scattered to the stars... Returning life to the planet easily means literally returning life to the planet since it's mostly, if not completely abandoned, not that the planet isn't habitable.

But we also are never shown that there are any 'more' Autobots than what we're shown.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We know they've become spread out among the stars. In all likelihood, it'll take them years to travel to Earth as we've already seen with how Autobots have been slowly making their way to Earth in each film.

"Been on Earth for decades before the Autobots" is debatable since we don't exactly know when Bumblebee came to Earth. (It's always been my preference that he's been there since, at earliest, 1967, so he could scan a brand-new '68 Camaro and become that. But the movies aren't clear either way.)

That doesn't track with me. If Bumblebee had been on Earth for so long, why would Optimus, Jazz, Ratchet and Ironhide wait almost 50 years for Bumblebee to signal them to come down?

The only other Transformers it's shown reviving from a "sleep mode" type thing is Jetfire, and it's debatable how much he needed.

What's your point? It's still something the Allspark and Matrix are both shown to be capable of.

That said, Megatron was definitely dead. (I still don't understand how the Allspark both kills and revives Megatron. What the hell.)

If you pump too much energy into something, eventually it's going to short out. Megatron's spark was overloaded with so much energy it was destroyed. And then his spark was reborn with the shard.

Because it's never shown doing so? Because no character ever states this? In fact, once the Fallen has ahold of it, Prime doesn't seem concerned at all with getting the Matrix back in ROTF. Then he inexplicably has it again in DOTM, and...uses it to revive Sentinel, and that's about it. Prime never once says, "Wow, now that we have the Matrix we can rebuild Cybertron!" Now, whether that's a problem with the characters being dumbasses or not isn't the debate here. Fact is, nobody in the movies says the Matrix can create life. And it's never shown to do that, either. So our only choice is to believe that it can't do that.

Again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because they don't say it in the movies doesn't mean it can't. The Matrix is shown to bring back dead Transformers and re-power them, just like the Allspark was shown to do. Given that evidence, it seems more than likely that it could pull off other feats that the Allspark was capable of. Especially considering the writers intended the Matrix to become a new vessel for the Allspark.

Along similar lines, Bumblebee never turns into a plane. Can he do that? He can turn into a car, after all, and other robots (Starscream, Jetfire) can turn into planes. Why can't Bumblebee?

In theory, if Bumblebee scanned a plane close to his proportional size...

There's a lot more Decepticons than there are Autobots, making it economically and politically viable to do so. Plus, Megatron wants to rule the universe, and if nothing else probably wants the old world as a trophy. Prime and the Autobots have no use for it when they can peacefully hang out on Earth, albeit mostly in secret. Megatron could use Cybertron as an effective base of operations, the Autobots aren't planning on ruling the universe, they just want to live in peace.

So then you admit they could rebuild the planet, even with out the Allspark?

And if the Autobots had the chance to live peacefully on Cybertron over Earth, don't you think they'd take it?

But none of them are ever stated as coming from Cybertron, for one, and I already refuted that the first movie doesn't say it's uninhabitable. It totally does!

I didn't say anything about anyone coming directly from Cybertron. I said they'd been spread out across the universe. So they'd be coming in waves depending on how far of a trip they've got to take. That said, we've got no idea how far Cybertron might be from Earth. And no, as I keep pointing out the first movie totally doesn't say anything about the planet being habitable or not.

It's implied but never stated--at least not in the films themselves. Besides, if they need the Allspark to put the Energon in from the Sun Harvester then what's the point of Fallen trying to turn it on? He doesn't have the Allspark to put it in. As for being an "unlimited source" of Energon, the name outright implies it. ALLspark. ALL the sparks. (Granted, previous drafts called it "The Energon Cube" but that's drafts for you.)

As the Fallen stated earlier in the film, The Allspark knowledge and power can't be destroyed, it can only transform. It transformed into Sam when it was downloaded into his brain. And as it was originally scripted, was to have been transferred to the Matrix. Yes, I know the movie itself doesn't make that clear and is another of it's stupid plot holes, but that doesn't change that's how it was supposed to explain how it's capable of doing the same things as the Allspark. As such, the Fallen did have the Allspark simply by having the Matrix, furthering the connection with the Sun Harvester.

And the name has nothing to do with how much power its got. It's the Allspark because it's where all the sparks, all Transformer life, comes from. But if they had stuck with the original idea of it being called an Energon Cube, the implication of having a device that creates energon would mean it needs recharged so often.

They could stay there to fight Autobots. Who would be there to fight Decepticons. Look, Transformers are dumb, they keep going in circles for literally millenia just fighting each other for no real reason.

Why? It doesn't make sense for them to stay on Mars just to fight each other. There would be nothing to be gained from it.

[Onslaught Six]

How did we get here?

[Shockwave]

I think you accidentally fell down the "arguing with Sparky" rabbithole. Which is weird because it's usually either me or Dom that does the epic ten page debate thing.

Incidently, I can kinda see what I think what Sparky's original point that it's odd that the Decepticons still want to rebuild Cybertron but the Autobots wouldn't. And unfortunately, the movies don't give a reason for it.

[Sparky Prime]

Incidently, I can kinda see what I think what Sparky's original point that it's odd that the Decepticons still want to rebuild Cybertron but the Autobots wouldn't. And unfortunately, the movies don't give a reason for it.

Exactly. You'd think they'd show the Autobots at least trying to make some plans to save Cybertron, especially with the Decepticons still clearly trying to save their home planet. If nothing else, it seems like they've got a good possibility to save the planet with the Matrix in their possession as it at least has some of the same abilities as the Allspark (and indeed was intended to be the new vessel for the Allspark).

How did we get here?

Your arguing the point with a lot of points incorrect or misremembered from the movies.

[Onslaught Six]

Right. And my argument was, the Matrix is never shown having that kinda power, and even if it did, Prime and co seem pretty happy just hangin' out on Earth. Maybe that makes them flawed characters. Maybe not. I dunno.

We done here?

[Sparky Prime]

Oh yeah, and absence of evidence fallacy arguments. Not seeing the Matrix display that level of power doesn't mean it couldn't. After all we never saw the Allspark display a global level of power but you're not questioning that.

We done here?

Sure, why not?