Dark Cybertron

The IDW Comics universe has had such a different take on G1, one that's now significantly represented by the Generations toys, so they share a forum. A modern take on a Real Cybertronian Hero. Currently starring Generations toys, IDW "The Transformers" comics, MTMTE, TF vs GI Joe, and Windblade.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:He wants it all....just because. Uh, that is...logical, right? Huge expensive plan to claim everything...just because.
Well the idea behind his plan of turning the universe into a singularity is so that singularity can power Cybertron forever. Pretty extreme way to ensure Cybertron never runs out of power again, but there is a cold logic behind it.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Tigermegatron »

Dominic wrote: Well, they kill off *
Spoiler
Bumblebee
this issue. Nothing spectacular about it, but it is the most notable thing to happen.
Yay,Best news I've read all day. Runs off to do the Ren & Stimpy dance of joy.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by JediTricks »

Just finished issue 11. Jeez. What an utter clusterfuck, right to the end. And killing BB, I guess that's IDW thinking the fans have had enough of the character in other media, but here he was working as a character until RID got derailed.
Dominic wrote:
Shockwave's big plan is finally revealed and it's stupider than stupid, but
He wants it all....just because. Uh, that is...logical, right? Huge expensive plan to claim everything...just because.
"For Cybertron, it is logical." No, not even a little bit. What is the purpose of Cybertron in this state? What is the possibility of Cybertron being worth a damn overflowing with robots later when they're fueled by forever? Can't go anywhere, can't do anything, can't conquer, can't learn, can't nuthin'.
That might make an interesting storyline, but it needs far more setup than a single issue can provide.
Your idea about Magnus would be an interesting run of comics. No need for it to be dealt with in a single issue.
Yeah, there's a whole event all to itself right there, really. Even could have the meta angle of talking about what DC is still withdrawing from, that of Batman-type characters aging out.
RiD got derailed. But, I tend to think "More than Meets the Eye" ended as it needed to. The characters were on an aimless journey together. And, now it is time for a new journey to begin.
I guess, but I thought they had a shot at making it work.
Chapter 11:

Well, they kill off *
Spoiler
Bumblebee
this issue. Nothing spectacular about it, but it is the most notable thing to happen. Jhiaxus getting his new, toy-accurate, body is given more attention. And....oi. The logic is actually really bad while simultaneously reconciling why he looks like Starscream.

*
Spoiler
Yup, all that hype about killing the character that we can all agree is the least likely to stay dead. Well, fine. I will bite. IDW has not gone all the way whole-hog "big 2" yet. So, I will stick with the Barber/Roberts books until they bring back Bumblebee.
Grade: C
Some stuff happens.
Damned generous grade. Some of the art, especially the inking (I'm sure it's probably digital inking, but still) was atrocious, and then there's characters winking in and out of scenes panel to panel (Scoop) while nonsensical big things happen. The Ammonites fighting Metro didn't work on the page, they misfired there. The story wasn't the dumbest in the series but was still no great shakes, and felt rushed as fuck.

BB took a hit from Shockwave while the latter was under the effects of time dilation, the ability to save him should be easy peasy.

Grade from me would be: D, and a generous one at that.
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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:"For Cybertron, it is logical." No, not even a little bit. What is the purpose of Cybertron in this state? What is the possibility of Cybertron being worth a damn overflowing with robots later when they're fueled by forever? Can't go anywhere, can't do anything, can't conquer, can't learn, can't nuthin'.
You're not looking at it from Shockwave's perspective. The only thing he's concerned with is ensuring the preservation of Cybertron and as he says in the previews for part 12, he believes he is transforming Cybertron into a paradise while he sees all life as having no value. Why would he care about going anywhere or conquering anything or any of that with that kind of cold logic?
BB took a hit from Shockwave while the latter was under the effects of time dilation, the ability to save him should be easy peasy.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they pull some way to save him with everything that's going on.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

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The only thing he's concerned with is ensuring the preservation of Cybertron and as he says in the previews for part 12, he believes he is transforming Cybertron into a paradise while he sees all life as having no value. Why would he care about going anywhere or conquering anything or any of that with that kind of cold logic?
Yup, and this is why I always say "wait until the end" to see how it shakes out. (And, yes, I admit to jumping the gun in this case and not giving Barber/Roberts a chance to finish what they were saying.

Chapter 12 specifically addresses the "Shockwave's plan is stupid" question. Shockwave is a hyper-logical nihilist. His goal is homeostasis. And, apparently, his plan will achieve that. (Yeah, it is entropy. But, Shockwave is okay with that. He does not want conquest. He, ironically, wants peace.

I guess, but I thought they had a shot at making it work.
The real point of "More than Meets the Eye" was never about finding the Knights. In real terms, it was to have the characters in space and doing stuff. On page, they more or less said that it was about all of the characters being together. The pre-DC coda issue specifically said that it did not matter where they went and what happened so long as they were together.

In that sense, they made it work.

Damned generous grade. Some of the art, especially the inking (I'm sure it's probably digital inking, but still) was atrocious, and then there's characters winking in and out of scenes panel to panel (Scoop) while nonsensical big things happen
I would need to recheck. But, I think Scoop's "vanishing act" was more an issue of inking (obscuring him) than him not being there.

The art for the arc as a whole has been bad enough to desensitize me. I notice it is bad. But, I have stopped scrutinizing it in detail.


BB took a hit from Shockwave while the latter was under the effects of time dilation, the ability to save him should be easy peasy.
If they use that kind of cheat, it has to be in part 12. No later. And, it would be a cheat given the "next issue, somebody dies" hype leading up to part 11.

If BB stays dead, then it is best to just accept it and move on to the next arc. Yes, "Robots in Disguise" was a good book. I might still be a good book. I liked Bumblebee in "Robots in Disguise". (I actually liked IDW BB over-all. But, Bumblebee is gone. Get over it.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Dominic »

Dark Cybertron #2 (aka "Dark Cybertron part 12 of the 12 part epic"):

Okay, no need to beat around the cyber-bush here. At the end of an event comic, the biggest question is "where is everybody and what is the status quo?", and there is no need to pretend otherwise. The answer to that question is in spoiler-text. Additional thoughts are below.
Spoiler
Ammonites (Minicons): Dead. All of 'em. All 70,000,000,000 of 'em. Dead. This is not the most important plot point. But, it really amuses me. Imagine a kid getting the Centuritron team at their local toy or hobby shop. Then, they read the comic. If they are sharp-eyed, they might spot the 'copter in a crowd scene. Maybe. Now, imagine that they stay with the comic, either through buying the toys or because they found there way to a comic shop and are buying comics off the rack. A few issues later, a ton of Ammonites die inside of Metroplex. Then, a few issues later (in a comic packaged with another toy), Centuritron shows up leading a horde of attacking Ammonites. (Yay, he clearly survived so far. And, he is clearly participating in the big fight on Cybertron.) Then, all 'em (including presumably Centuritron) get offed. This just makes me giggle.

Metalhawk: Dead again. Looking back on it, his first death was probably just meant to be set-up to get him pumped full of Shockwave's special sauce Energon, which let him die heroically in "Dark Cybertron". Along the way, Metalhawk managed to be the guy who took out all ~70,000,000,000 Ammonites. Yup, Metalhawk probably beats Luke Skywalker's tally from "A New Hope". Metalhawk is on a level with cosmic-level characters like the Monitor II (Anti-Monitor), the LIving Tribunal and Unicron. Yeah, I had to pad that list out with guys from other properties. But, it is a very exclusive club. Good work Metalhawk, you killing machine you.

Scoop: Probably dead. The last time he shows up, he is the only Autobot standing around when Galvatron is claiming leadership of the Decepticons. Blitzwing may have saved him. But, until we see something definitive, I am going to assume that Scoop is dead.

Jhiaxus: Dead, despite looking like the new toy. (Ironically, his new toy-accurate body played a role in his death.)

Galvatron: Set up to be leading the Decepticons. This is likely a tie-in with the upcoming fourth Bayformers movie.

Cyclonus: Still alive, and still a face.

The Autobots: Going to be split between Optimus (and going to Earth) and Megatron (aboard the Lost Light).

Decepticons: Most of them likely to join Galvatron. But, a few were seen in the crowd surrounding Optimus and Megatron. (I spotted Buzzsaw, one of the Constructicons and Blitzwing.)

Optimus: Calling himself Optimus again.

Megatron: He is an Autobot now.

Shockwave: Dead. Remains presumably sucked in to the Dead Universe. (Gah, I still hate typing that phrase.) This might turn out to be less permanent than one might reasonably expect. But, I am hoping for the best (that he stays dead and gone).

Bumblebee: Ditto.

Dead Universe: Still there.

Kup: Back, hail and hearty. Hopefully, there will be some follow up to the pre-"Infestation" angle.

Nightbeat: Also back, alive and well. Oddly, he is still not in his new (toy-accurate) body despite being repaired this issue.

Hardhead: Still dead.

Starscream: Dethroned.

Skywarp: One of two Seekers to survive and remain unambiguously loyal to the Decepticons. (And, for all we know, Acid Storm is dead.)

All told, I am curious to see where this goes. The reversals with
Spoiler
Kup and Nightbeat
are bothersome. And, they make me wonder how permanent
Spoiler
the situation with BB and Shockwave
will be.
Spoiler
When/if BB and Shockwave come back, I might be given sufficient reason to bail on TF comics.
As shown in the previews, Shockwave was a logical nihilist, and it made sense to him
Spoiler
as a result of the shadow-play he was subjected to in the flashback story in "More than Meets the Eye"
.
Spoiler
Optimus Prime's
last words to
Spoiler
Shockwave
were well-handled, as was
Spoiler
Shockwave's
last minute change of stance. it actually tied in with
Spoiler
"More than Meets the Eye" neatly enough to imply planning by Roberts and Barber
, which is ironic considering
Spoiler
that "More than Meets the Eye" was the book we generally considered to be more aimless, being more about character than plot
.

Misc thought about
Spoiler
Shockwave
:
Spoiler
Shockwave
always had the potential to be a monster. He was consistently described as
Spoiler
being Jhiaxus' student
, even when he was a relatively benign
Spoiler
Senator
. While not overtly malicious, he did have some fanatical traits. And, I recall a line (I forget from where) about
Spoiler
"Jhiaxus' student continuing the experiments of his teacher"
, which referenced events before
Spoiler
what was shown in "Shadow Play"
.


Over all: C
"Dark Cybertron" was far from perfect. And, I am not 100% happy with how it turned out. But, it could have been much worse. And, the upcoming comics are intriguing.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by JediTricks »

Spoilers about.

3

2

1

....

Spoilers final warning.


So.

There you have it folks.

That was a total waste of time. Very little in the way of emotional repercussions for BB's death - hell, there were more proverbial tears shed for the villain.

No payoff for Cyclonus, no more story for Kup or anybody, hell even the Ammonites don't get to really explain themselves or anything, it all went to feed Megatron.

But at least there was a nonsensical ending running from a black hole that was eating the planet and then somehow didn't and magically the rest of the universe reappeared.
Sparky Prime wrote:
JediTricks wrote:"For Cybertron, it is logical." No, not even a little bit. What is the purpose of Cybertron in this state? What is the possibility of Cybertron being worth a damn overflowing with robots later when they're fueled by forever? Can't go anywhere, can't do anything, can't conquer, can't learn, can't nuthin'.
You're not looking at it from Shockwave's perspective. The only thing he's concerned with is ensuring the preservation of Cybertron and as he says in the previews for part 12, he believes he is transforming Cybertron into a paradise while he sees all life as having no value. Why would he care about going anywhere or conquering anything or any of that with that kind of cold logic?
BB took a hit from Shockwave while the latter was under the effects of time dilation, the ability to save him should be easy peasy.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they pull some way to save him with everything that's going on.
Well, the former made no sense and was just doublespeak for "destroy everything ever!" while the latter didn't come to pass.
Dom wrote:Yup, and this is why I always say "wait until the end" to see how it shakes out. (And, yes, I admit to jumping the gun in this case and not giving Barber/Roberts a chance to finish what they were saying.

Chapter 12 specifically addresses the "Shockwave's plan is stupid" question. Shockwave is a hyper-logical nihilist. His goal is homeostasis. And, apparently, his plan will achieve that. (Yeah, it is entropy. But, Shockwave is okay with that. He does not want conquest. He, ironically, wants peace.
Ok, we're at the end and it didn't say anything.

When did Shockwave become a nihilist? There's nothing logical about a nigh-eternal robot race being nihilistic. Homeostasis isn't logical either, and he made no arguments to present a counterpoint to that. His plan wasn't entropy really, entropy is about balance, and there was none here.
The real point of "More than Meets the Eye" was never about finding the Knights. In real terms, it was to have the characters in space and doing stuff. On page, they more or less said that it was about all of the characters being together.
Says you.
I would need to recheck. But, I think Scoop's "vanishing act" was more an issue of inking (obscuring him) than him not being there.
I studied it carefully, the panel before he gets shot there's nowhere else he could be but in the right, and he ain't there.
If they use that kind of cheat, it has to be in part 12. No later. And, it would be a cheat given the "next issue, somebody dies" hype leading up to part 11.
You know this shit is coming in the next year to 2 years. We all know it.
Metalhawk: Dead again. Looking back on it, his first death was probably just meant to be set-up to get him pumped full of Shockwave's special sauce Energon, which let him die heroically in "Dark Cybertron". Along the way, Metalhawk managed to be the guy who took out all ~70,000,000,000 Ammonites. Yup, Metalhawk probably beats Luke Skywalker's tally from "A New Hope". Metalhawk is on a level with cosmic-level characters like the Monitor II (Anti-Monitor), the LIving Tribunal and Unicron. Yeah, I had to pad that list out with guys from other properties. But, it is a very exclusive club. Good work Metalhawk, you killing machine you.
Metalhawk's action wasn't even to kill, that was a side effect. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if Metalhawk's actions did anything towards his stated goal. But he was never alive here, he was a cheat, his character made no sense at all earlier and then was dishonest about breaking, it was terrible writing - how is Shockwave going to bring him on as a minion without knowing where his loyalty lies?
Scoop: Probably dead. The last time he shows up, he is the only Autobot standing around when Galvatron is claiming leadership of the Decepticons. Blitzwing may have saved him. But, until we see something definitive, I am going to assume that Scoop is dead.
Shit, I hadn't even noticed him in those 2 panels, but there he is, whole and intact. There's no way he's dead off-panel, he's the harbinger, he's the one who will spread news of the new Decepticons.
Galvatron: Set up to be leading the Decepticons. This is likely a tie-in with the upcoming fourth Bayformers movie.
Unlikely based on the spoilers I just read about Bay4, the Bayening:
Spoiler
Galvatron is a human-created Transformer that's a puppet for the humans hunting down the last of the Cybertronians
Shockwave: Dead. Remains presumably sucked in to the Dead Universe. (Gah, I still hate typing that phrase.) This might turn out to be less permanent than one might reasonably expect. But, I am hoping for the best (that he stays dead and gone).
The Dead Universe should be gone now, everything that fueled it was used up.
Dead Universe: Still there.
How do you figure? When we last saw it, it was collapsing and about to crush our heroes, then they escaped through Contrvius PlotDevicisus, then the last of it got erased to make Shockwave's power happen. Unlike the regular universe, the DU was the fuel for Shockwave's ores combining, I thought, not for Cybertron.
Starscream: Dethroned.
That's not true,
Spoiler
he is shown as the leader in Windblade #1.
You are very presumptuous.
When/if BB and Shockwave come back, I might be given sufficient reason to bail on TF comics
Yeah, you always say shit like that.
Misc thought about {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}Shockwave: {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}Shockwave always had the potential to be a monster. He was consistently described as {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}being Jhiaxus' student, even when he was a relatively benign {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}Senator. While not overtly malicious, he did have some fanatical traits. And, I recall a line (I forget from where) about {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}"Jhiaxus' student continuing the experiments of his teacher", which referenced events before {SPOILER - Mouse-over to read:}what was shown in "Shadow Play".
This didn't feel true to Shockwave at all, in fact it was Shockwave's logic that I always felt gave him the potential to be a monster, not his mentor.
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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Dominic »

That was a total waste of time. Very little in the way of emotional repercussions for BB's death - hell, there were more proverbial tears shed for the villain.

No payoff for Cyclonus, no more story for Kup or anybody, hell even the Ammonites don't get to really explain themselves or anything, it all went to feed Megatron.

But at least there was a nonsensical ending running from a black hole that was eating the planet and then somehow didn't and magically the rest of the universe reappeared.
This stuff is generally dealt with in follow-up issues. I expect that to be the case here.

What sort of payoff were you expecting for Cyclonus.

Kup is likely to get more page time in upcoming issues. (Why are you assuming "no more story" for Kup?)

That faction the Ammonites were fighting is likely to show up at some point. (Why would they not seek out Cybertron or the Lost Light?)

Yeah, the black hole thing was kind of stupid.

When did Shockwave become a nihilist? There's nothing logical about a nigh-eternal robot race being nihilistic. Homeostasis isn't logical either, and he made no arguments to present a counterpoint to that. His plan wasn't entropy really, entropy is about balance, and there was none here.
Shockwave's nihilism was a heavily bastardized egalitarian ideal mixed with him being purely logical.

Says you.
Says the last issue of "More than Meets the Eye" to come out pre-"Dark Cybertron".

Metalhawk's action wasn't even to kill, that was a side effect. In fact, I'm not entirely sure if Metalhawk's actions did anything towards his stated goal.
Metalhawk's goal was the disrupt the ores. And, he did that.

And, the fact he was not trying to kill the Ammonites just makes him more of a bad-ass. He took out ~70,000,000,000 without even trying. Just imagine what he could have done if he put his mind to it!

Unlikely based on the spoilers I just read about Bay4, the Bayening:
Only been half paying attention to movie spoilers. I have to wonder if
Spoiler
movie Galvatron is going to turn on the humans and eventually end up leading the Decepticons
.

Spoiler
The Dead Universe should be gone now, everything that fueled it was used up.
The process that was destroying the Dead Universe (I still feel dirty typing that) was disrupted.
You are very presumptuous.
I misread the scene where Starscream was surrounded by half a dozen angry guys.

Shit, I hadn't even noticed him in those 2 panels, but there he is, whole and intact. There's no way he's dead off-panel, he's the harbinger, he's the one who will spread news of the new Decepticons.
Wait and see. Scoop is hardly essential. No reason he would need to survive. And, the way Galvatron is talking in that scene does not bode well for anybody wearing an Autobot sigil (especially when they are the only Autobot in the general vicinity).

Blitzwing could easily be the guy who spreads the word about Galvatron and the other Decepticons, assuming that Soundwave does not do so in a confrontation with Megatron in the next issue or two.

This didn't feel true to Shockwave at all, in fact it was Shockwave's logic that I always felt gave him the potential to be a monster, not his mentor.
During "Shadowplay", Shockwave arguably had some fanatical tendencies. And, the fact he was Jhiaxus' student, and was stated to be continuing Jhiaxus' experiments is hardly an indicator of shining morality. (I forget where it was that it was mentioned that Shockwave was continuing Jhiaxus' work after the Ark left.) Pre-Shadow Play Shockwave was not necessarily a monster. But, the potential was there.

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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by JediTricks »

Dominic wrote:This stuff is generally dealt with in follow-up issues. I expect that to be the case here.

What sort of payoff were you expecting for Cyclonus.
ANYTHING would have been good. They made him a plot point and then dropped him, they built up this turn, twist, whatever, and then just left it at the wayside.
Kup is likely to get more page time in upcoming issues. (Why are you assuming "no more story" for Kup?)
Same fucking thing as above, he gets some story and then fades into the background of "characters following Optimus" without any payoff except "take this anti-vampire potion".
That faction the Ammonites were fighting is likely to show up at some point. (Why would they not seek out Cybertron or the Lost Light?)
That doesn't explain why the Ammonites agreed to Shockwave's dumbfuck plan or why there's 70 billion of them and they all magically show up and do a thing - instant enemy army, just add water.
Yeah, the black hole thing was kind of stupid.
At least we can agree on something.
When did Shockwave become a nihilist? There's nothing logical about a nigh-eternal robot race being nihilistic. Homeostasis isn't logical either, and he made no arguments to present a counterpoint to that. His plan wasn't entropy really, entropy is about balance, and there was none here.
Shockwave's nihilism was a heavily bastardized egalitarian ideal mixed with him being purely logical.
You do realize that those are diametrically opposed things, universal nihilism and egalitarianism, right?
Says you.
Says the last issue of "More than Meets the Eye" to come out pre-"Dark Cybertron".
That was the justification for why it didn't, not why it shouldn't or couldn't, and even that was debated on-page IIRC.
Only been half paying attention to movie spoilers. I have to wonder if
Spoiler
movie Galvatron is going to turn on the humans and eventually end up leading the Decepticons
.
That'd fit well with TF Prime, and this movie does seem to be dumb as a stump, so yeah, likely.
Spoiler
The Dead Universe should be gone now, everything that fueled it was used up.
The process that was destroying the Dead Universe (I still feel dirty typing that) was disrupted.
I thought the Dead Universe was the fuel for destroying the other universe, that's why it contracted first. Also, FUCK YOU THE DEAD UNIVERSE FOR BEING A THING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Goddamned nonsense. So if they don't end up getting rid of the Dead Universe in this series, it'll really have been a total abortion of an event.
You are very presumptuous.
I misread the scene where Starscream was surrounded by half a dozen angry guys.
You didn't misread, you presumed how that scene would end.
Wait and see. Scoop is hardly essential. No reason he would need to survive. And, the way Galvatron is talking in that scene does not bode well for anybody wearing an Autobot sigil (especially when they are the only Autobot in the general vicinity).
He got shot to not-death in a big way, there was no reason to include him in the later scene unless he matters to it. Beating him to death won't accomplish anything when our heroes already saw him eat it earlier.
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Re: Dark Cybertron

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:Well, the former made no sense and was just doublespeak for "destroy everything ever!"
The plan was to collapse the universe to a singularity to use as a power source for Cybertron. It wasn't doublespeak for "destroy everything ever", as long as you don't mind Cybertron being the only thing in existence. And in that regard, his plan did make sense. It would ensure Cybertron remained powered forever.

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