Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Onslaught Six »

To me, that reads as not just appropriating from the original Star Wars, but deconstructing the original saga's ultimate ending. The galaxy was appreciably better at the end of ROTJ, and has since lost every goal it gained, while somehow hemorrhaging resources that it then easily in a short time reacquires in greater volume. That's quite the commentary on our heroes' efforts, basically saying that no matter how hard they tried, everything they would do would be for naught.
Isn't this in line with the prequels? Obi-Wan says in ANH "a more civilized weapon for a more civilized time," but as demonstrated even by later entries in the OT, Obi-Wan is a fucking goddamn liar. ("Darth Vader killed your dad! He was a great pilot when I met him! He wanted you to have this lightsaber! The Jedi totally knew what the fuck they were doing! Who's Yoda?") That's the overarching point of the prequels, isn't it? That the Jedi weren't actually all that intelligent and were actually bad at their jobs and possibly as fucked up as the Sith? That "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" isn't terrible dialogue but is actually a commentary on how Obi-Wan is blinded by his hatred of the Sith?

Many of the things that happen in TFA are things people theorized for years. Even with the deaths of both of their major leaders and destruction of their main base, the Empire would likely not disappear completely. The movie itself does have some vaguely defined "New Republic" that is publicly controlling everything and the First Order seems like it's some kind of invading force against the New Republic--and Poe Dameron, Leia et al are in a vaguely-defined "Resistance" against them. It's not really made clear at all the relationship these three entities have with each other--if the New Republic is the established government, why do they need a secret resistance to fight against the First Order? Shouldn't Leia and Poe Dameron be part of the fucking army/space navy or something? The only thing I can think of is that the First Order is some kind of weird rogue group that started as part of the public army and became a bunch of dickholes, making the New Republic Germany and the First Order into Nazis or something equivalent, I don't know. I'll totally admit this is a problem.
My theory at this point actually revolves around the Empire's splinter factions finally reuniting under the First Order and Supreme Master Overlord Fuhrer God Snoke (what an idiotic name. Snoke! I keep thinking they say Smoke and he's a Mortal Kombat character!). The Knights of Ren are only mentioned one time and are barely defined if at all inside the movie.

Luke failing to train (at least one) Jedi who ends up going to the dark side and becoming the main villain is also something everyone predicted, and it's fine because that totally makes sense. It's an amazing plot thread and carries on the entire tradition of Star Wars' character arcs; Anakin's fall to the dark side and the Last Temptation of Luke Skywalker in ROTJ are core elements of these movies, and to repeat it again is fine and dandy. What, you were expecting the Yuuzhon Vuu?
I haven't seen the film yet, so I'm not commenting on TFA's quality, but Hollywood has been ripping off the megahit big release popcorn film genre from Star Wars for 38 years now almost entirely without realizing that there is still a particular level of care and vision which delivered that success. There's a reason Ghostbusters works but Evolution didn't, you need more than a similar recipe and cribbed ideas. Unfortunately, Hollywood has gotten a recipe of marketing and visuals together to cover up for its flaws, so you get a lot more Transformers '07 than Matrix films succeeding, and now a whole generation of moviegoers has no idea that even popcorn films are supposed to be Raiders of the Lost Ark over Minions, Mad Max Fury Road over The Amazing Spider-Man 2.
You say that but look at what awards Star Wars actually won; editing, score, sound mixing, art direction, costume design, visual effects. The plot of Star Wars is paper fucking thin and while I'll admit that it was huge, it was not that first movie that catapulted Star Wars into a cultural phenomenon. It was Empire Strikes Back. We could go back and forth on this and I'm sure there will be attempts to do so, but without Empire, well over half of what we now consider to be "Star Wars" just doesn't fucking exist. Without that, it's a story about a farm boy who shoots up a space station and a weird bad guy who's all black. Empire is where the other shoe drops and Star Wars goes from a great movie to a great movie in an amazing franchise. Even ANH doesn't quite have all the emotional beats in line--we have Obi-Wan as the surrogate father and we have all the witty dialogue, but Han Solo doesn't fully grow and Leia has no arc or character to speak of besides "being a sassy bitch." (This is a positive trait, just saying.)
Where the movie shines is in its almost unparalleled worldbuilding that still feels fresh and unique today, and I'll completely give you that. The new movie has the umpteenth advantage there by being a goddamn sequel--all it has to do is be in the same universe and show us newer versions of the same things and we'll be happy, sure, but that doesn't disqualify it from being great. I never said it was perfect but it has all the right ducks lined up in just the right way that makes me happy, at least--happier than I was with THREE prequel movies.
I hear Kylo Ren's angry brattiness is the type of character that Anakin should have been in the prequels.
DEFINITELY, but on an even cooler scale; Anakin was a guy with some anger issues and shit who wanted to get more powerful and save his wife or whatever, definitely, and there was that shoehorned in whatever bullshit about a "prophecy" to "balance the two sides" but in the end, he was just a guy who got manipulated into being an asshole.

Kylo Ren is a guy who finds out his grandfather is the biggest most legendary badass in the universe and he wants to be that guy. Fuck that, he wants to be better than that guy. He deserves it. It's his fucking birthright. Only one problem: He don't got it. He's not the most legendary badass in the universe. He's just a guy who made his own lightsaber and probably killed his uncle's wife (fan theory) and wants to be like Darth Vader, but underneath the helmet he isn't scarred from a volcano battle during the Clone Wars in a far-off planet; he's a kid with a big nose and a Bane voice changer. And that makes it all the better when he starts having the doubts and asks the helmet of his father to help "guide him back to the dark."
(I do not buy at all that he is actually speaking to Vader's force ghost...because Anakin would probably be like, "No dude, for real, dark side bad, light side good. I fucked up.")
Looper, I like to liken it to this: Looper is 2 good movies that have JACK SHIT to do with each other. :p
That is probably the best way to describe it. The worst part is that I bought a ticket on the merit of seeing the movie advertised as only one of those movies, so to run into the other one midway through was...disappointing. I've come to love it though, all the same, and I like hearing Rian Johnson talk; he sounds like a dude who gets it on the same levels I do. I probably should stop judging directors on what they say in podcasts though; I didn't see Fantastic Four but it sounds like I got fucked in the ass on that one.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it was decisive... I mean sure, like you say the Empire was pretty much done for with the losses they suffered at Endor and subsequent uprisings across the galaxy we saw in ROTJ. But at the same time, the Imperial Navy was massive to impose the Empire's rule over so much of the galaxy. Despite their heavy losses, they would have still had loyal Imperialists out there. Meanwhile, it took the entire Rebel Alliance to win the Battle of Endor, and they knew going into the fight they wouldn't be able to last long against the Star Destroyers, which is why they'd been planning for a quick strike and just hoping they could hold off the Star Destroyers long enough. Not to mention, they'd suffered losses in the battle as well. Despite getting lucky with their huge victory over the Empire, the Rebels still wouldn't have been a match for the remaining Imperial Navy. So it makes sense for the Rebels to take the time out to celebrate their victory. They'd need to take the time to restrengthen their own forces to take on the remaining Imperial fleet anyway.
We "won" the Iraq War in 2003, but there are still insurgent forces in the country to this day. I like to think of it like that. In a different set of circumstances, it is not unheard of for a rebel group to form together under a united new banner for old reasons. (It's that what ISIS is about? I'm not up on current events.)
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by JediTricks »

Sparky Prime wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say it was decisive... I mean sure, like you say the Empire was pretty much done for with the losses they suffered at Endor and subsequent uprisings across the galaxy we saw in ROTJ. But at the same time, the Imperial Navy was massive to impose the Empire's rule over so much of the galaxy. Despite their heavy losses, they would have still had loyal Imperialists out there. Meanwhile, it took the entire Rebel Alliance to win the Battle of Endor, and they knew going into the fight they wouldn't be able to last long against the Star Destroyers, which is why they'd been planning for a quick strike and just hoping they could hold off the Star Destroyers long enough. Not to mention, they'd suffered losses in the battle as well. Despite getting lucky with their huge victory over the Empire, the Rebels still wouldn't have been a match for the remaining Imperial Navy. So it makes sense for the Rebels to take the time out to celebrate their victory. They'd need to take the time to restrengthen their own forces to take on the remaining Imperial fleet anyway.
I didn't mean to suggest it was a decisive end to the war, just that it was a decisive victory of the battle over Endor. The Rebels wouldn't let top leadership just take a break and head down to the planet (nor would the TIEs). That said, the Emperor committed a lot of his navy to that battle, you're presuming there's a massive navy out there that the Rebels still have to contend with, and we don't know that.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:That said, the Emperor committed a lot of his navy to that battle, you're presuming there's a massive navy out there that the Rebels still have to contend with, and we don't know that.
I wouldn't say that... Granted the films never gives us a clear indication of how big the Imperial Navy really is, but we do know their primary role is policing and maintaining the Empire's control over the galaxy. Now I know you're going to say Tarkin said in ANH that they were counting on the fear of the Death Star to keep many star systems in line, but you'd still need a massive starfleet to watch over an entire galaxy. I'd also point out you're making an assumption about the size of the fleet at Endor yourself. There's nothing to say that was a lot of the navy.

And despite not being canon with the films, the Expanded Universe says that the Imperial fleet had around 25000 Star Destroyers before the Battle of Endor, and 4 Super Star Destroyers.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Dominic »

I never understood the thinking that Endor was a comprehensive defeat for the Empire as a whole.

It is similar to "GI Joe: Retaliation". Cobra would have launched multiple attacks. But, there is no reason to assume the whole team was in the field with Roadrock. (Most of the Joes would have been killed. But, the other guys showing up at the end made sense as survivors from other sites.).

Even assuming that every Imperial ship was destroyed (hard to tell given the choppy edits of Episode 6), why assume that the entire Imperial navy consisted of maybe 20 capital ships?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by JediTricks »

Sparky Prime wrote:
JediTricks wrote:That said, the Emperor committed a lot of his navy to that battle, you're presuming there's a massive navy out there that the Rebels still have to contend with, and we don't know that.
I wouldn't say that... Granted the films never gives us a clear indication of how big the Imperial Navy really is, but we do know their primary role is policing and maintaining the Empire's control over the galaxy. Now I know you're going to say Tarkin said in ANH that they were counting on the fear of the Death Star to keep many star systems in line, but you'd still need a massive starfleet to watch over an entire galaxy. I'd also point out you're making an assumption about the size of the fleet at Endor yourself. There's nothing to say that was a lot of the navy.

And despite not being canon with the films, the Expanded Universe says that the Imperial fleet had around 25000 Star Destroyers before the Battle of Endor, and 4 Super Star Destroyers.
Presumption and EU do not evidence make. ANH, General Tagge says that the Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped which makes them dangerous, Admiral Motti counters that they may be a danger to Tagge's starfleet but not to the Death Star. Tagge starts to retort that as long as the Rebellion gains support in the Senate their threat will grow, and that's when Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been dissolved, then he says the line about fear...

TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

Regardless of whether or not the Death Star is around, the regional governors are who will be controlling territories, not the Imperial Navy. Fear of the Empire is what's keeping them in line, and while a Star Destroyer can be dispatched, it doesn't automatically mean every territory has a Star Destroyer at all times. Tatooine didn't have a Star Destroyer until the Devastator showed up there in pursuit of the Tantive IV. Han says that the entire Imperial Navy couldn't destroy Alderaan, that it would take "a thousand ships with more firepower than" he's familiar with, so the Death Star outguns the navy, giving us some idea of how large that force would be, and we are given an indication that it's nowhere near a thousand ships.

Dominic wrote:I never understood the thinking that Endor was a comprehensive defeat for the Empire as a whole.

It is similar to "GI Joe: Retaliation". Cobra would have launched multiple attacks. But, there is no reason to assume the whole team was in the field with Roadrock. (Most of the Joes would have been killed. But, the other guys showing up at the end made sense as survivors from other sites.).

Even assuming that every Imperial ship was destroyed (hard to tell given the choppy edits of Episode 6), why assume that the entire Imperial navy consisted of maybe 20 capital ships?
The Rebels defeated the Imperial Navy over Endor, but not everywhere, it was only decisive at that battle. However, the defeat of the Emperor is ultimately what cements the victory, he is the driving force of this Empire, he only dissolves the senate 4 years prior, there was still a hint of democracy before that. The Imperial forces fought due to his command, not out of any centralized purpose larger than Palpatine. The Empire was new, fresh, it was a power structure that used overwhelming force as threat to fall in line, still striking out against democracy in ANH. It held the galaxy hostage at the barrel of a gun, not as a foundation of the galaxy's way of being for generations. Even on a backwater nowhere like Tatooine, Luke and Biggs hated the Empire but felt powerless to do anything about it while at home, and that Galactic Empire was the singular effort of the Sith in the form of Palpatine. A generation prior there wasn't even a galactic military force, older people still remembered days before Star Destroyers and Stormtroopers, when the local militias kept the peace as we saw on Naboo. The defeat of the Death Star, the Executor, and Palpatine meant there was no keystone anymore.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Shockwave »

So I actually saw TFA yesterday and... I love it. The only time the hyperspace thing is really there is at the end, the other times they cut away to something else. Not much else, but still. So yeah, I'll forgive Abrams for the one instance. Everything about Kylo Ren screams unfinished. On purpose. In the first half he struts around like a new Darth Vader, but in second half we see it's just a smoke screen. Even his lightsaber has an unfinished look to it, like the blades are somewhat undefined. It's rough around the edges because he's rough around the edges. I also love all the new characters, the actors all had great chemistry with each other which is something that Hollywood doesn't cast for now days. The original trilogy worked so well because they casted people that worked well together as an ensemble. They did the same thing with the 1978 Superman movies and I think that's a lot of what was missing from Man of Steel. And it sucked all the charm out of the original. But Force Awakens has this and with comes the charm and the wonder and adventure that made Star Wars so great to begin with.

As for the Empire in ROTJ, it always kind of bugged me about the Empire being overthrown as well. I mean, sure, maybe it's like a snake, cut off the head and the rest dies, but... not really. That's not how politics works. Most political systems have protocols in place if the guy at the top dies. Or even the top two or three guys. So I've always wondered:
1. How did the other planets immediately know that the Emperor and Vader were both dead and
2. Why did they immediately start rebelling when they weren't before? I mean, one would have to assume that whatever Imperial force or presence that was there keeping said planets in line would presumably still be there so it's not like the average citizens would have be able to overthrow there local Imperial enforcement. And if they were capable of that, why didn't they do it sooner and make things way easier for the Rebel Alliance? In a series that centers a lot around the political structure of the society it's set in, there are several loopholes in this series.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Sparky Prime »

JediTricks wrote:Presumption and EU do not evidence make.
I never said it was, but that is the only thing we have to work with since the films don't give us any true indicator. And again, you're whole aruement here is also based on a presumption.
ANH, General Tagge says that the Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped which makes them dangerous, Admiral Motti counters that they may be a danger to Tagge's starfleet but not to the Death Star. Tagge starts to retort that as long as the Rebellion gains support in the Senate their threat will grow, and that's when Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been dissolved, then he says the line about fear...
Right, but then you have ROTJ where Admiral Ackbar says that they (the entire Rebel fleet) wouldn't last long against the Star Destoryers. The Rebel fleet can do some damage, but even they know they're outmatched by the Imperials.
Regardless of whether or not the Death Star is around, the regional governors are who will be controlling territories, not the Imperial Navy. Fear of the Empire is what's keeping them in line, and while a Star Destroyer can be dispatched, it doesn't automatically mean every territory has a Star Destroyer at all times. Tatooine didn't have a Star Destroyer until the Devastator showed up there in pursuit of the Tantive IV. Han says that the entire Imperial Navy couldn't destroy Alderaan, that it would take "a thousand ships with more firepower than" he's familiar with, so the Death Star outguns the navy, giving us some idea of how large that force would be, and we are given an indication that it's nowhere near a thousand ships.
More likely the governors are only in place to handle day to day operations of their territories, making their power superficial at best. The real power is with the Imperial Navy, as again, putting their faith in the fear of the Death Star to keep star systems in line implies. They're banking of the show of force from the military to keep people in line, not the ability of the governors to keep people in line.

I never said every system would have a Star Destoryer in it. But a galaxy is huge, containing billions of stars. Clearly the Empire doesn't have the ships to cover the whole galaxy at all times, but my point is simply that they'd need a massive fleet to patrol such an area, or at least be positioned at various key points around the galaxy to cover different interests and be able to respond to any given problem as needed quickly. Not to mention, outlying systems like Tatooine wouldn't be much concern to the Empire, so no need to permanently position a Destoryer in every system. It doesn't make sense the fleet at Endor would be a large portion of the Imperial Navy because they'd still need ships to cover their other interests throughout the rest of the galaxy. And as over confident as the Emperor was, he's not going to put all of his eggs in one basket like that either. Besides, you also have to remember the Imperial Navy came out of the Grand Army of the Republic, which fought the war across... who even knows across how many worlds all at the same time. Their forces should rightly be huge and spread out across the galaxy.

And I don't think Han's line is meant to be taken as an indicator of the size of the fleet. He's talking about the complete obliteration of a planet, something he's clearly shocked about and struggling to understand. As powerful as the Imperial Navy is, are their standard turbo lasers going to do that to a planet? No. It'd take weapons significantly more powerful.

As for the new film.... I saw it today. I'll post some thoughts later.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Dominic »

Han's line about what it would take to destroy a planet was likely meant as "passing comment" more than "technically precise".


As for the Empire in ROTJ, it always kind of bugged me about the Empire being overthrown as well. I mean, sure, maybe it's like a snake, cut off the head and the rest dies, but... not really. That's not how politics works. Most political systems have protocols in place if the guy at the top dies. Or even the top two or three guys. So I've always wondered:
The Empire might not have had formal continuity of governance plans. (Does anybody really think that the Emperor cared what happened after he died?)

But, there still would have been a chain of command for military and civilian authority. Ship crews would have followed orders from commanders/officers. Administrative staff would have done their jobs. Those guys would have had an interest in continuing the Empire. This would be partly an issue of keeping their bills paid. And, how well would anybody expect things to go for former Imperial staff once the Rebellion becomes a new regime? Stormtroopers and data entry guys have no incentive to surrender.

2. Why did they immediately start rebelling when they weren't before?
It was a likely an opportunistic rebellion. And, it likely went badly in the long term. (The Empire would still have had infrastructure on most of those planets.)

But a galaxy is huge, containing billions of stars.


Not according to Abrams.
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

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JediTricks wrote: ANH, General Tagge says that the Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped which makes them dangerous, Admiral Motti counters that they may be a danger to Tagge's starfleet but not to the Death Star. Tagge starts to retort that as long as the Rebellion gains support in the Senate their threat will grow, and that's when Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been dissolved, then he says the line about fear...

TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

Regardless of whether or not the Death Star is around, the regional governors are who will be controlling territories, not the Imperial Navy. Fear of the Empire is what's keeping them in line, and while a Star Destroyer can be dispatched, it doesn't automatically mean every territory has a Star Destroyer at all times. Tatooine didn't have a Star Destroyer until the Devastator showed up there in pursuit of the Tantive IV. Han says that the entire Imperial Navy couldn't destroy Alderaan, that it would take "a thousand ships with more firepower than" he's familiar with, so the Death Star outguns the navy, giving us some idea of how large that force would be, and we are given an indication that it's nowhere near a thousand ships.
Exactly. With thousands of systems out there, there's no way the Empire at the time of episode 4 has enough of a fleet or enough personnel to keep a ship at every planet at all times. Hence the construction of the Death Star, a mobile planet destroying weapon that would use terror to do what the fleet could not.
The Rebels defeated the Imperial Navy over Endor, but not everywhere, it was only decisive at that battle. However, the defeat of the Emperor is ultimately what cements the victory, he is the driving force of this Empire, he only dissolves the senate 4 years prior, there was still a hint of democracy before that. The Imperial forces fought due to his command, not out of any centralized purpose larger than Palpatine. The Empire was new, fresh, it was a power structure that used overwhelming force as threat to fall in line, still striking out against democracy in ANH. It held the galaxy hostage at the barrel of a gun, not as a foundation of the galaxy's way of being for generations. Even on a backwater nowhere like Tatooine, Luke and Biggs hated the Empire but felt powerless to do anything about it while at home, and that Galactic Empire was the singular effort of the Sith in the form of Palpatine. A generation prior there wasn't even a galactic military force, older people still remembered days before Star Destroyers and Stormtroopers, when the local militias kept the peace as we saw on Naboo. The defeat of the Death Star, the Executor, and Palpatine meant there was no keystone anymore.
There's no question that the battle of Endor was a decisive win for the Alliance that would have crippled the Empire. With the upper levels of the Imperial power structure killed, it's a huge victory. It was easy to imagine that the Imperial fleet would fragment, and many would either surrender or else be far easier to defeat in open battle than they would have been if the upper levels of their command structure were still intact. A war that pitted Rebels employing hit and run tactics against a superior Imperial fleet would become a war in which the Rebel fleet could take the remains of the Imperial fleet out piece by piece.

In other words, as I said earlier, it was possible to imagine a happy ending for Luke, Han, Leia and all the others. They had worked hard and won some major fights. Now it seems as though all of that was for nothing. They've spent the 30 years since ROTJ continuing to fight former Imperials and experiencing personal tragedy.

Still haven't seen the movie yet. As always, getting a babysitter is an issue. We're thinking of taking my 11 year old daughter to see it and leaving the younger one at a friend's house. Any thoughts on whether it's appropriate for someone her age, since it has a PG-13 rating?
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII (allowing for spoilers)

Post by Shockwave »

andersonh1 wrote:
JediTricks wrote: ANH, General Tagge says that the Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped which makes them dangerous, Admiral Motti counters that they may be a danger to Tagge's starfleet but not to the Death Star. Tagge starts to retort that as long as the Rebellion gains support in the Senate their threat will grow, and that's when Tarkin comes in and says that the Senate has been dissolved, then he says the line about fear...

TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

Regardless of whether or not the Death Star is around, the regional governors are who will be controlling territories, not the Imperial Navy. Fear of the Empire is what's keeping them in line, and while a Star Destroyer can be dispatched, it doesn't automatically mean every territory has a Star Destroyer at all times. Tatooine didn't have a Star Destroyer until the Devastator showed up there in pursuit of the Tantive IV. Han says that the entire Imperial Navy couldn't destroy Alderaan, that it would take "a thousand ships with more firepower than" he's familiar with, so the Death Star outguns the navy, giving us some idea of how large that force would be, and we are given an indication that it's nowhere near a thousand ships.
Exactly. With thousands of systems out there, there's no way the Empire at the time of episode 4 has enough of a fleet or enough personnel to keep a ship at every planet at all times. Hence the construction of the Death Star, a mobile planet destroying weapon that would use terror to do what the fleet could not.
The Rebels defeated the Imperial Navy over Endor, but not everywhere, it was only decisive at that battle. However, the defeat of the Emperor is ultimately what cements the victory, he is the driving force of this Empire, he only dissolves the senate 4 years prior, there was still a hint of democracy before that. The Imperial forces fought due to his command, not out of any centralized purpose larger than Palpatine. The Empire was new, fresh, it was a power structure that used overwhelming force as threat to fall in line, still striking out against democracy in ANH. It held the galaxy hostage at the barrel of a gun, not as a foundation of the galaxy's way of being for generations. Even on a backwater nowhere like Tatooine, Luke and Biggs hated the Empire but felt powerless to do anything about it while at home, and that Galactic Empire was the singular effort of the Sith in the form of Palpatine. A generation prior there wasn't even a galactic military force, older people still remembered days before Star Destroyers and Stormtroopers, when the local militias kept the peace as we saw on Naboo. The defeat of the Death Star, the Executor, and Palpatine meant there was no keystone anymore.
There's no question that the battle of Endor was a decisive win for the Alliance that would have crippled the Empire. With the upper levels of the Imperial power structure killed, it's a huge victory. It was easy to imagine that the Imperial fleet would fragment, and many would either surrender or else be far easier to defeat in open battle than they would have been if the upper levels of their command structure were still intact. A war that pitted Rebels employing hit and run tactics against a superior Imperial fleet would become a war in which the Rebel fleet could take the remains of the Imperial fleet out piece by piece.

In other words, as I said earlier, it was possible to imagine a happy ending for Luke, Han, Leia and all the others. They had worked hard and won some major fights. Now it seems as though all of that was for nothing. They've spent the 30 years since ROTJ continuing to fight former Imperials and experiencing personal tragedy.

Still haven't seen the movie yet. As always, getting a babysitter is an issue. We're thinking of taking my 11 year old daughter to see it and leaving the younger one at a friend's house. Any thoughts on whether it's appropriate for someone her age, since it has a PG-13 rating?
Depends on what you would find objectionable. If it's violence then you'll probably want to leave her at home since there is a fair amount of it. Beyond that I can't think of anything else. No one swears or uses foul language and there's certainly no sex or nudity so it should be fine otherwise.
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