Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

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BWprowl
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by BWprowl »

Oh, fluff/story absolutely informs gameplay. Even something as simple as your arrows vs. lasers example works as an explanation: In fantasy-themed games, shooting arrows would generally be a simple ranged weapon check, with the quantity of arrows in your inventory affecting how many you could shoot. Meanwhile, in a future-themed game like Dark Heresy, laser pistols use ‘charge packs’ for their ammunition, and are just one type of ammunition with their own unique, armor-affecting properties. Furthermore, laser weapons in Dark Heresy have their own set of special rules/rolls that can cause them to ‘overheat’ or explode under the wrong circumstances, providing an element of danger simply for using them.

The ‘magic’ in such a setting comes with similar elements. Most of the ‘powers’ in Dark Heresy come from unleashing psychic elements of some sort, so every time a Psyker uses a power, there’s a chance of some psychic feedback or ‘perils’ occurring, leading to him rolling on a ‘perils’ table if his powers do *too well*, which can have effects anywhere from a sudden gust of wind, to turning the Psyker into a rampaging host for a demi-daemon that the party will have to restrain (this happened to a member of our party on his first game. He was just trying to use his powers to climb a wall). Also, Psyker characters in DH often have visible deformities or imperfections that exist as a result of their psychic conditioning. In-game, this can make it easier for NPCs they might be trying to deceive to peg them as a Psyker. All these rules exist to tie into the 40k universe's backstory and explanation of psychic powers coming from tapping into a horrifying parallel reality known as the Warp. Story and gameplay, bein' buddies!

The setting and fluff also affect tech levels available to the party, and what advantages those afford them. In, say, DnD, if a character loses a hand, they’re SOL. Might get a hook-hand, might have to go on some quest to get access to high-level healing magic that can regenerate their hand. Meanwhile, in Dark Heresy, a character can just go to a tech-savvy area and buy a robot hand. Maybe even add some weapons into it.

How the setting works even affects the system the rolls are made on, to contribute to the ‘feel’ of that fluff and world. In the VeloCity thing I mentioned, for instance, the emphasis is on ‘speed and movement’, so the dice system is designed to use relatively few rolls, quick counting, and even saving up good rolls for later so you have less to worry about in critical situations. Furthermore, there aren’t actually any specific ‘skills’ to characters in that game, everything is just checked against given sub-stats; there’s no ‘dodge traffic’ skill, you just roll a check against your ‘reflexes’ stat.
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by annhell »

*Lurk*

Gomess, out of curiosity, how much experience have you had in game (video or otherwise) development in general? You’re looking at the creative effort as a synergistic whole. It’s not wrong, and can even produce great quality if done right, but it’s also not necessary in game development. As everyone else here already said, it’s actually possible to completely develop the 2 aspects separately. That is how the class archetypes of damage dealer, healer and tank are able to transcend all genres of RPGs from medieval to sci-fi.

The choice of whether to detach or blend crunch and fluff should be taken as a spectrum and not absolute extremes. The thing to note is that the more you blend the two in your conceptualising, the more you step into the domain of your Flash programmers and telling them how to do their job. The fact that you’re looking to do a turn-based game is significant in this regard, which I believe is why AU asked this “crunch or fluff?” question in the first place.

The very nature of turn-based gaming creates a detachment from the game experience by frequently pausing to let the player make choices outside of the in-game flow of time. And in those moments, fluff is next to insignificant, and crunch is the deciding factor for whether the game is fun.

Turn-based gaming needs meaningful options to choose from, which in turn requires complexity in combat system dynamics to support those possible options. For instance, if the only options available in each turn are either to strike with your weapon or cast a spell and you only have enough spell points to cast ONE spell, you’re going to choose “strike” almost always, which makes the turn-based approach a meaningless, slowed-down button-masher. And this is also why combat mechanics is such a major area of emphasis in RPG design, especially turn-based RPGs.

TL;DR – there is always a point in game development when crunch needs to be set apart on its own away from fluff. Deciding where that point is, is a matter of practicality
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by Gomess »

annhell wrote:how much experience have you had in game (video or otherwise) development in general?
Zero. I barely even play games anymore. No, I don't know why these people think I'd be an asset either.
annhell wrote:You’re looking at the creative effort as a synergistic whole.
I regularly work with a combination of creatives and... well, people who need to do what their boss tells them, and synergy is basically at the core of my practice. I don't believe in giving people specific jobs to do whenever I can help it, unless I think it'll benefit them personally (often the case with younger people).

But let me clear something up: I'm not trying to develop a game. Not strictly. But there's a chance I'll be called upon to pump some- possibly lots of- ideas into a project, and I want to be sure I know what I'm talking about, because as I've admitted I'm ignorant about most of the medium's extant rules. The reason I might be involved is just because I'm an Ideas Man in general, which is all well and good, but not if my ideas don't fit.

And again, don't misunderstand: I don't yet have a portfolio full of cemented ideas. I don't think that'd benefit me right now at all. I just have a few loose concepts and the heap of questions I've littered this thread with.

Thanks for weighing in annhell, a rare treat!
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Almighty Unicron
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by Almighty Unicron »

Gomess, if you wouldn't mind, I'd actually like to talk business with you in a PM.
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annhell
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by annhell »

Gomess wrote:
annhell wrote:how much experience have you had in game (video or otherwise) development in general?
Zero. I barely even play games anymore. No, I don't know why these people think I'd be an asset either.

But let me clear something up: I'm not trying to develop a game. Not strictly. But there's a chance I'll be called upon to pump some- possibly lots of- ideas into a project, and I want to be sure I know what I'm talking about,

Yea, I kinda figured that was what you were getting into. I was trying to point out how your holistic approach may encroach upon defining the development team’s scope of work, and to use my experiences in software/game design and development (I used to design e-learning games) to try to illustrate what you are likely to expect when you contribute ideas.

I’m assuming you’re looking more towards contributing fluff, since you’ve pretty much admitted to knowing next to nothing about the crunch. I get that you’re trying to gauge how credible and useful your ideas will be to the project before you commit to it. The thing is, though, in game design, anything is possible. A more practical question is, “How much are the others willing to let you tell them what to do?”

As AU said, crunch and fluff require different skill sets.
If the project is going to produce a Flash-based application, and turn-based to boot, then I’m guessing that they’re not looking for anything overly ambitious or ground-breaking, though Flash does provide enough versatility to pull off some neat tricks.

Let me finish off this post with an example of a real game: Mass Effect (the first one)
The lore in this sci-fi game established the fictitious Mass Effect technology which allows the mass of physical objects to be manipulated. This enabled faster-than-light travel and, thus, space travel.

The fluff could have just stopped there to establish the intergalactic setting and interactions with aliens, but it goes further to apply Mass Effect technology into the firearms used in the game. Instead of a typical ammo-based shooting system, the firearms are explained to have, pre-installed, a block (of some sort of material which I can’t recall) and every time a shot is fired, a fragment is shaved off this block and subjected to a Mass Effect field to increase its mass into a serviceable bullet. Hence, firearms don’t need to be reloaded in the middle of a combat situation.

However, weapons do generate heat, and if a weapon gets overheated, it locks down for a period of time until the heat dissipates. This aspect of fluff translates into the game system, in that the game doesn’t rely on an ammo count, but instead uses a heat gauge that builds the longer the player keeps up the shooting, and starts decreasing when the player stops firing.

In terms of map design, there was no need to place ammo supply points to ensure a smooth progression through the gameplay.
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

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Almighty Unicron wrote:Gomess, if you wouldn't mind, I'd actually like to talk business with you in a PM.
Well, if you've got some advice I'd be glad to hear it, go ahead.
annhell wrote:what you are likely to expect when you contribute ideas. A more practical question is, “How much are the others willing to let you tell them what to do?”
Thankfully that's not really an issue. I've worked with most of them before and they asked me if I was interested since it's all locally based. I'm confident that I'd be listened to, but I'm more concerned about being worth listening to in the long run.

And now that you mention it, I'm not even sure it's Flash, really, that was just a word that got bounced around when they were talking graphics. It's so weird being asked your opinon on something you feel so unqualified for, but I pretty what's expected of me.

Are the questions I've asked throughout the thread too vague? I'd really like to get down to the nitty gritty of class theory, or at least get some more personal opinions on various aspects of RPing.

Prowl, I like the idea of characters essentially having magical abilities but not calling it magic, are there many examples of this? The whole psychic thing strikes me as interesting.
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BWprowl
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

Post by BWprowl »

Are the questions I've asked throughout the thread too vague? I'd really like to get down to the nitty gritty of class theory, or at least get some more personal opinions on various aspects of RPing.
I get the impression you’re interested in creating ‘unique’ classes, or at least contributing the ideas for them. One point, I think, is that there are SO many role-playing games, both virtual and table-top, that it’s a situation where almost any idea you’ve got likely has been covered in some way. But that shouldn’t discourage you, some of the best RP characters are built on ideas that came before, since the entire point of them (in the table-top medium, anyway) is to use a ‘what you know’ approach to roleplay with your buddies, and your own frame of reference is going to be the best one available to you.

I’d suggest looking over guides to some of the more extensively-class-based Final Fantasies, actually, like Tactics. The game had Fighters and Healers and Black Mages, yes, but also included wild stuff like Geomancers, who cast different spells depending on what ground they were standing on, Dancers, who work like Bards, but offensive (instead of party-wide status buffs, they dispense nerfs and long-term damage on enemies as long as they’re dancing), and Mediators, who specialize in TALKING to the enemy and convincing them to either give up or even join your side. And don’t get me started on how nuts Calculators can be. Then you’d want to take a look at what system/setting this game you and your pals here are working on and go “Okay, what other stuff could characters in this setting do?”
Prowl, I like the idea of characters essentially having magical abilities but not calling it magic, are there many examples of this? The whole psychic thing strikes me as interesting.
‘Magic’, in a general RPG term, refers to any specialized skills that don’t come about as a result of shooting or stabbing someone. Basically if you want characters in a game to be able to throw rocks with their mind or set stuff on fire or something, it could be considered a ‘magic’ system regardless of it it’s called ‘Psychic’ or ‘The Force’ or what have you. Though how you define it and how it works certainly informs how it plays. As mentioned earlier, Psykers in DH have to tap into The Warp every time to use their powers, and the risks associated with it. Mass Effect, which Annhell mentioned, uses ‘Biotics’ which work closer to more general ‘psychic’ powers like force-pushing and holding, but also let you affect the health, shields, and firing rate of you and your allies, and can even have those powers upgraded through the use of equippable items. Earthbound was another RPG that featured characters using ostensibly ‘magical’ skills but defined them as ‘psychic’ to go along with its more modern fluff, most of it is really just presentation, though it’s presentation that can actually inform the gameplay if you want to do it that way.
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

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I'll also be the first to point out that, if you're basically being brought on as a kind of outside consultant/"idea man," it's very important that you don't bring in a bunch of ideas that everybody else is going to hate. If you got a guy who doesn't want to do a sci-fi game, it's probably not a great idea to bring up your great ideas about space exploration classes. Because he'll just quit.

And for the most part, the gameplay elements should come first, in a way. I know I said that the "rules" should develop organically, and in a complicated system, absolutely. But the gameplay parts should be the most satisfying part because that's what's engaging about it. And then you have to balance the part where it's also fun and engaging to make the game. It's all a big weirdass machine.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

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Onslaught Six wrote:I'll also be the first to point out that, if you're basically being brought on as a kind of outside consultant/"idea man," it's very important that you don't bring in a bunch of ideas that everybody else is going to hate. If you got a guy who doesn't want to do a sci-fi game, it's probably not a great idea to bring up your great ideas about space exploration classes. Because he'll just quit.

And for the most part, the gameplay elements should come first, in a way. I know I said that the "rules" should develop organically, and in a complicated system, absolutely. But the gameplay parts should be the most satisfying part because that's what's engaging about it. And then you have to balance the part where it's also fun and engaging to make the game. It's all a big weirdass machine.
Nah, fuck that. There's nothing cooler than a space wizard. Nothing except a van painted with a space wizard riding a cosmic unicorn-pegasus.



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Re: Turn-based RPG knowledge/imagination/opinions desired

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Almighty Unicron wrote:Gomess, if you wouldn't mind, I'd actually like to talk business with you in a PM.
You should act on your desires.
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