Retro Comics are Awesome

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Onslaught Six
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

Post by Onslaught Six »

Dominic wrote:How are we defining retro? With DC, I suppose we could say "August 2011 and earlier". But, what about Marvel? Maybe pre-Bendis "Avengers" pre-JMS "Spider-Man" and pre-Whedon "X-Men"? Maybe pre-movie era? Normally, I would say pre-Quesada, but he has been around for so long that one could argue he has over-seen several eras.
I'm going with pre-2000 at worst. The impact of comics published in 2011 (or even 2010, 2009) can still be felt today and some of those stories are still sort of continuing.
I expect colour. If you want me to pay for a comic, it had damned well better look professional.

The only arguement I can think of against compilations is that they are individually more expensive than comics and require more money and time from the reader. (I happen to prefer compilations, but for things that I am already reading.)
They might individually be more expensive, but in my mind you'd pick up Batman Monthly for $10 or so. (Think magazine prices like, say, Wizard before it went under, or Maxim or bridal magazines or something.) It'd have all the content of 'all' the Batbooks you'd buy individually. Someone buying Batman, Batman & Robin and Detective Comics is already spending $12 a month, and that's not even counting stuff like Red Robin or Red Hood. (I don't even know if they have individual books at this point, mind.)
I tend to think that the comic market itself suffers more for people not reading much to begin with than for pricing. Pricing likely does more to force existing readers to read less than to deter new readers. I have heard the same about newsprint though. It is more expensive than other types of stock.
Then what's the cheapest paper? What were the new Transmet trades printed on? Those were matte and really good, and even enhanced the feel of the series in its own way. (And those trades were $15 even, so you can't tell me they weren't cutting corners somewhere.)

The price was definitely a factor for me when I started reading comics in 2008. (And I mean 'actively' reading comics.) It took a lot to take that first plunge in buying The Dark Knight Returns, and then slowly, trades became a habit. Because $20 (or less--in the last years of its life, Borders often sent out weekly coupons for 20-40% off. I bought the entire Sandman run that way.) for 5-6 issues of a comic was very reasonable, when you average $4 an issue in floppies.

Just an example: I started buying Animal Man with the New 52. The first trade is retailing for $14.99 (but on Amazon it's a whopping $8.20!) and collects Animal Man 1-6. I spent $2.99 on each of those issues, which totals out to $17.98--almost $18. By waiting for the trade, I could have saved at least $3, or going by Amazon prices, $10.

There's a problem with the industry.
That only works if somebody wants, or is at least willing, to buy all of those book.

Putting aside, "how do you define 'Spider-Man' books" (what about "All New Spider-Man" or various "Avengers" titles or "FF"?), what if somebody only wants to read about Peter Parker? Having to buy a book that is 50% or less what they want might drive readers off. I happen to like Costa's run on Cobra. I also prefer compilations. But, when IDW started reprinting "GI Joe" comics in consecutive volumes that crossed individual titles, I was out. I am not willing to buy a compilations that is 50% (or higher) Dixon. In this case, I am settling for the single issues by Costa. Maybe I would be more willing to pay for Dixon's work if single issues were not an option. But, I might also just give up.

In the case of "Batman", would somebody who is in for "Batman Incorporated" of "Odessey" going to be willing to pay for "Red Hood and the Outsiders" or "All-Star Batman"?
To those people, I say, suck it up and deal with it. All New Spiderman will be collected separately anyway, just as it is now. You just have to wait a little bit longer.

It works in the manga model, is the thing. One Piece has chapters posted in Shonen Jump, but if you don't want to read all the other stuff in Shonen Jump, you just wait until they have enough to comprise a volume, and buy that. That's why I don't understand why we can't have that. Shit, at least my idea targets people who are reading the same stuff--if you read Batman, chances are good you're at least marginally interested in Catwoman. But Shonen Jump will throw completely disparate series together. Imagine if my model suggested you get one book with Batman, Superman, Animal Man and Green Lantern. That's 'what they do' and it even works for them!
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

Post by Dominic »

Cheap paper might lead to low quality printing though. Enough people want their books to be display worthy that cheap quality printing could cause problems. I would like to see more comics using the type of stock that "Knights of the Dinner Table" uses. On the one hand, that book runs about $80 an issue. But, it is also technically a magazine and it has a significantly higher page count than many comics.

Anthologies do not tend to do well in the long term. Remember "Marvel Comics Presents" (a'hooo hooo hooo)? Yeah, nobody else does either. That series lasted for a few years, and usually had a strong lead and competent back-ups. But, that was not enough to keep the series going. For a while, Marvel actually tried quarterly anthologies. Those eventually degenerated in to glorified one-shots before going away entirely.

Part of me wonders if the American consumer market simply cannot support an anthology series because the American market has been about increasingly finer segmentation since the 1950s, even more so since the 80s.

I would buy an anthology with rotating creative teams and content, particularly if it was built around the old "Marvel Comics Presents" model of having a strong lead by a-list talent and strong b/c-listers and/or new guys just starting out. But, I would not buy an anthology of regular series though, unless I liked more than one of them. (To go back to the "GI Joe" example, I have zero interest in Chuck Dixon's writing. I am not going to waste time or money on his work. And, over time, buying the compiled "GI Joe" books would even take more space, as the Dixon written pages accumulated.)

As for the question of what is retro, I would argue that August 2011 works for DC because of "Flash Point". Even the stories that still count have to be modified to fit. And, "Flash Point" marked a wholly new direction for the company as a whole. Marvel on the other hand is trickier, as Marvel tends to be more stagnant.


Dom
-wondering if "Warhammer Monthly" is still being published.
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BWprowl
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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Dominic wrote: I would like to see more comics using the type of stock that "Knights of the Dinner Table" uses. On the one hand, that book runs about $80 an issue. But, it is also technically a magazine and it has a significantly higher page count than many comics.
I’m going to assume you meant $8 and issue, otherwise…yikes.
Cheap paper might lead to low quality printing though. Enough people want their books to be display worthy that cheap quality printing could cause problems.
And this is a problem. Fact is, comic books are basically little magazines, they *really* should just be thought of as disposable story samples rather than pristine collector’s items. I don’t bag and display my old issues of EGM, and I certainly wouldn’t do the same with any other magazine. Like Six, my comics get tossed into a box in a closet once I’m done with them. If I like a story enough to want to read it over and over in a nice format, I will buy the trade (see: those beautiful hardcovers of AHM and LSotW). Comic publishers need to somehow get fans out of this mindset that this 3.99 chapter of one stupid story is a collector’s item that needs to look as nice as possible, and instead focus on getting them to just read the stories and enjoy them.

I don’t see the issue with stuff being in black and white or color. If something can look good in black and white, then by all means let it be published that way. I’ve seen some beautiful monochrome art that only got buggered up and hard to read when it was colored.

Onto the anthology question, I’m like Six, a kid of the ‘manga generation’ that grew up grabbing stuff at Borders in anthologies and trades. The manga/anthology model really works in Japan, but I wonder if it has to do with their difference in pricing and schedule over there. See, a lot of Japan’s anthologies are *weekly*. Weekly Shonen Jump comes out every week, with new chapters of One Piece and Bleach and Nura Rise of the Yokai Clan or whatever. And they cost 500-600 yen, which is like eight bucks in American money. Eight bucks a week for new issues of 8 or 9 comics? That’s a steal compared to what you get in comic shops over here! Sure, none of them are in color, but fuck color, eight bucks! Plus, while manga is obstinately written for the trade (even more so than today’s western comics), the decompression isn’t felt as much since you’re getting a new ‘issue’ every week.

They’ve tried to manga anthology model in America a few times. Shonen Jump did notably well, but they kept thinning that one out and it was eventually canned in favor of an online version. One I was following for a while though, that I want to talk about in regards to some of Dom’s misgivings about anthologies, is Yen+. This was a monthly anthology from Yen Press, retailed for about 10 bucks, that notably didn’t really have a theme to it (Shonen Jump at least specialized in shonen- boys’ action comics), it was just a collection of titles Yen Press had recently licensed that were notable enough that they thought it could make it in the market. It had cool stuff like Soul Eater, Higurashi, Black Butler, and then you could flip the whole thing over, and starting from the other side were left-to-right reading OEL manga-esque comics based on crap like James Patterson novels, plus of bunch of shitty Korean manwha that I didn’t read (this is also where that horribly shockingly good Gossip Girl manga I hate myself for liking originated). The thing was jammed with content, and yeah, there was plenty I didn’t like and just didn’t read (the Maximum Ride adaptation remains one of the worst comics I’ve ever read), but I was still totally cool with plunking down ten bucks a month to read new chapters of stuff like Soul Eater, Higurashi, Pandora Hearts, and some other stuff I liked. Certainly more bang for my buck than dropping four bucks and issue for whatever DC was putting out at the time.

My point is, yeah, with an anthology model you’re going to have stuff you don’t like in the book, but if you can ignore it, as long as there’s a majority of stuff you *do* want to read in there, it may be worth it to you. And as with Gossip Girl, it’s a good avenue to find stuff you like that you never would have encountered otherwise (or to find new and exciting ways to hate Svetlana Chmakova, the overrated bitch).

But yeah, it probably is just a cultural thing at this point, since western comic buyers will eschew anthologies since they can’t bag and number them and display them in mint condition later.

I like a lot of cover art, and I *love* it when trades include cover galleries, but I’m not going to buy the same issue of a comic multiple times just to get/display all the covers, that’s ridiculous.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

Post by Dominic »

The problem with what you are suggesting is that it would undermine a business model that the comics industry (publishers, distributors and retailers) has become very comfortable with over the years.

The last thing that anybody in the industry wants to do is convince people that the single issues they are buying every month are not worth it. People buying single issues of a comic means that stores, distributors and publishers have a steady revenue stream. People buying compilations means that people spend more money, but less frequently. And, readers have more time to forget or simply lose interest in a series. Selling single issues obligates readers to come back at least every month, if not every few weeks.


I really do not think that the urge to display every issue in order is that big a deal for as many American comic readers as you think. I know a few who just want to "have it". If the format changes, the format changes. They are not bothered. But, the effective bundling of product would be an issue. The less of the content that I like, the less likely I am to buy a full anthology. And, I am probably not unique in that view.

How many pages per story do Japanese manga anthologies have? How many pages of a story that you are reading does it take to make the whole anthology "worth it"? I know that this is the retro comic thread, but I am going to use "New 52" DC as an example. I am reading "Earth 2" and "Worlds' Finest" out of curiosity about what DC is going to do next. If I were oblitgated to buy both together, I could live with it. I could even deal with certain other books being bundled with the two that I would normally read. But, past a certain point, too many books that I am simply indifferent to (never mind actively disliking) would become a problem. Even putting aside price considerations, I do not necessarily want to allocate space for a book that I am only 1/3 in for.

I don’t see the issue with stuff being in black and white or color. If something can look good in black and white, then by all means let it be published that way. I’ve seen some beautiful monochrome art that only got buggered up and hard to read when it was colored.
Black and white has an association with "unfinished" or "ameteur hour".
I’m going to assume you meant $8 and issue, otherwise…yikes.
I know what I typed! What? What did you think I was spending my money on?

(Actually, no. I screwed up.)


Dom
-notes that comics are fast approaching the $10 an issue mark, so $80 may not be that far off.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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Dominic wrote:If I recall the scene correctly, the colour of the truck did not matter. It was a nice truck. An expensive truck. Ch'p never saw it coming, and thus could not have blocked it.
Ch'p saw it coming, John even warned him to get out of the road. Ch'p just stood there like a deer in the headlights and then ran in the wrong direction trying to get out of the way.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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Dominic wrote:The problem with what you are suggesting is that it would undermine a business model that the comics industry (publishers, distributors and retailers) has become very comfortable with over the years.

The last thing that anybody in the industry wants to do is convince people that the single issues they are buying every month are not worth it. People buying single issues of a comic means that stores, distributors and publishers have a steady revenue stream. People buying compilations means that people spend more money, but less frequently. And, readers have more time to forget or simply lose interest in a series. Selling single issues obligates readers to come back at least every month, if not every few weeks.
That's the thing though, you might get people who are crazy die-hards about their comics, but my nearest comic shop is in a town I don't work in that's an additional 35-40 minutes away from where I live. Now, I live in a shithole town which means you have to drive 20 minutes just to get to a Wal-Mart, but that's fine. I understand that. But at the same time, I know that I have to go to a town I would, otherwise, have no real reason to go to. (Thankfully, they also have a Chick-fil-A, so once or twice a month, me and my girlfriend go out there, and buy comics and Chick-fil-A.) No comic is going to be good enough to get me to head out there weekly.

So for me, I go to a comic shop and drop $20-30 in one lump, and walk away with seven or eight books. (Depending on how much monthly overlap there is. I've gone home with multiple Venom issues before, because the length of time between visits was so long.)

So I say, convince the industry! It's dying anyway. If we can get them to change over to a model that works way better, then good!
I really do not think that the urge to display every issue in order is that big a deal for as many American comic readers as you think. I know a few who just want to "have it". If the format changes, the format changes. They are not bothered. But, the effective bundling of product would be an issue. The less of the content that I like, the less likely I am to buy a full anthology. And, I am probably not unique in that view.
In Prowl's view: Who cares! Eight bucks!

Seriously, if you can convince me that I'm getting more stuff for less money, then sign me up. I've 'pirated' comics before. I don't particularly care what format I read them in, as long as I read them. I read the entire run of Valiant's Shadowman that way, because I wasn't tracking down back issues--that'd be difficult and a waste of time. I just wanted to read the stories and see if they were good.

The reason I even buy single issues is because then I can keep up with current happenings, but I could switch to all-trades easily. The only reason I don't is because I really like the comic shop in that town, and I like being updated.
How many pages per story do Japanese manga anthologies have? How many pages of a story that you are reading does it take to make the whole anthology "worth it"? I know that this is the retro comic thread, but I am going to use "New 52" DC as an example. I am reading "Earth 2" and "Worlds' Finest" out of curiosity about what DC is going to do next. If I were oblitgated to buy both together, I could live with it. I could even deal with certain other books being bundled with the two that I would normally read. But, past a certain point, too many books that I am simply indifferent to (never mind actively disliking) would become a problem. Even putting aside price considerations, I do not necessarily want to allocate space for a book that I am only 1/3 in for.
So you wait for the trade on that book! That's the beauty of the model! If you only care about All New Spiderman, and none of the other Spidey books, you just buy those trades when you come out.

Around where I live, we have an old-fashion drive-in theater. They only operate in the summer. You pay about $8 per person, drive your car in, and they play two movies. A few weeks back, they were playing Avengers and something dumb. (I'm going to pretend it was the Three Stooges remake.) I kind of wanted to see Avengers again but didn't want to see Three Stooges. But here's the thing--it's only $8. To see Avengers anywhere else, I'd need to drive out there, and pay probably $12 or more(!) to see just Avengers. See the difference?

(That said, I didn't go because I didn't have $8.)
Black and white has an association with "unfinished" or "ameteur hour".
Maybe with your generation, but Prowl and I (and I would argue a lot of our generation) see that and just see it as anything else. I see the craft in the Rurouni Kenshin or Evangelion manga and it's just as good-looking as anything else. (In fact, they lack the crappy modern comic computer colouring that I absolutely hate the look of. So, bonus.)
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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I think the thing with the individual issue format for collectors is the idea that they will wind up with something like Action Comics #1 which a mint condition copy of would be enough to buy the Playboy Mansion. I'm exaggerating but you get my point. The really hardcore collectors that keep things pristine in bags and boards are betting that the next issue with be valuable later on for being the first appearance of a character that will later become iconic enough to be worth selling later on. It's bullshit of course, but that's the deal. The only other thing I can think with the single issue format is the impatient reader like myself that wants to read the next chapter now rather than wait for the trade.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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Sparky Prime wrote:
Dominic wrote:If I recall the scene correctly, the colour of the truck did not matter. It was a nice truck. An expensive truck. Ch'p never saw it coming, and thus could not have blocked it.
Ch'p saw it coming, John even warned him to get out of the road. Ch'p just stood there like a deer in the headlights and then ran in the wrong direction trying to get out of the way.
Ch'p freaked out, it's implied, because he saw that John Stewart was in fact the "red" creature that had destroyed the bridge. I can't remember if that's the case or not. So when he sees John, he is afraid of him and runs right into the path of the truck.

Since it's been discussed, I've pulled the issue in question out of the box.

Green Lantern Mosaic #2
July 1992
$1.25

Gerard Jones definitely was going for offbeat with this series. Sadly it wasn't quite so strange near the end of the series' 18 issue run, but early on it was an odd, atmospheric book. Cully Hamner's art is perfect for this series. And I note that they're not using newsprint any more. The paper isn't the glossy high quality stock we see today, but it's still a huge improvement over newsprint. It was well worth the quarter increase in price.

Ch'p is hibernating, while the other alien squirrels are fighting and maiming each other. He wakes up when he's attacked and uses his ring to defend himself. Meanwhile on Oa John Stewart is having nightmares about "the road". His inner monologue is all about humans going further and further down the road into the alien areas of the Mosaic world. He rescues a human-driven track that almost drives into a chasm on the road. John is determined to discover who is smashing the road every night, something he thinks shouldn't be possible. The scene then shifts back to Ch'p, who can't go back to being a bloodthirsty alien squirrel after being a Green Lantern, so he heads up to the surface to find Salaak. He takes him and heads back to Oa to find John Stewart.

I don't want to rehash the whole plot, but John recruits Ch'p to help him stop whoever is smashing the road, and it turns out that Ch'p is not quite the Green Lantern that he used to be. He doesn't have the willpower he did, and he is unable to fight whatever it is (if I remember right, some manifestation of John Stewart? I can't quite recall). And it's both funny and sad to see the squirrel Green Lantern run over and killed by a "Glyder" moving van. "No, Ch'p! Not that way!" It's a weird juxtaposition of a scene, which pretty much describes the whole series. And the last page features Stewart talking to the reader, asking him if he saw anything.

Strange book, with great atmosphere and great characterization. It's a pity Gerard Jones apparently got so burned out. When he was at the top of his game, he was a very good writer. Kept me coming back month after month.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

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andersonh1 wrote:Ch'p freaked out, it's implied, because he saw that John Stewart was in fact the "red" creature that had destroyed the bridge. I can't remember if that's the case or not. So when he sees John, he is afraid of him and runs right into the path of the truck.
You can look up the page (number 3 if that doesn't link directly to it) easily enough online. Looks to me like he and John were talking in the middle of the road and and Ch'p just freezes as he watches the truck approaching.
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Re: Retro Comics are Awesome

Post by andersonh1 »

Sparky Prime wrote:
andersonh1 wrote:Ch'p freaked out, it's implied, because he saw that John Stewart was in fact the "red" creature that had destroyed the bridge. I can't remember if that's the case or not. So when he sees John, he is afraid of him and runs right into the path of the truck.
You can look up the page (number 3 if that doesn't link directly to it) easily enough online. Looks to me like he and John were talking in the middle of the road and and Ch'p just freezes as he watches the truck approaching.
A lot of the context is lost if you just see that one page. There's a lot more too it than that. I've got the issue, so in the next few days I"ll try to scan the relevant pages in to show the sequence in context, if it's not already out there somewhere.

I found the final issue of Green Lantern Corps in my collection as well, and I see what you mean about Hal releasing the yellow entity from the power battery. But the final Guardian also says that he'll be able to maintain what little power was left, so those that still had rings could keep them, thus explaining the few remaining Lanterns like Ch'p and the three humans. Ch'p, incidentally, looks like some cartoony creature in the final issue of GLC, whereas in Mosaic he actually looks like a squirrel. Major artistic shift going on there.
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