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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Sparky Prime wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:34 am Tidbits from episode 3...

Spoiler
Even though they weren't ever going to use the Spore Drive again... Discovery uses it to return to Earth. Earth is pretty far away from wherever Discovery ended up in the galaxy, but I haven't seen anything establishing where exactly they were in relation to Earth...

Burnham fills the crew in on The Burn, and Stamets says nothing could have affected all dilithium across space at the same time. Burnham goes on to say she found a transmission from 12 years ago asking any remaining Starfleet personnel to meet an Admiral on Earth.

Turns out the Admiral was killed on a departing ship, no destination planet was recorded (anti-climatic). Earth has become self-sufficient (meaning introverted and cynical, to the point they even ignore other humans living elsewhere within their own solar system) following "The Burn" to defend themselves from Raiders looking for dilithium. When Discovery arrives, a planetary shield goes up and the "United Earth Defense Force" confronts them telling them to leave, until they explain a cover story about being the descendances of the crew following an extended mission (how anyone would buy this when Discovery is clearly a 23rd century ship... I don't know).

Apparently the Federation and Starfleet headquarters left Earth following The Burn a century ago. No one knows where they went. (That's really dumb.) Because most of the ships destroyed in the Burn were Federation and it's unknown if it was an attack or if it'd happen again, it was felt Earth would be a potential target. As such, Earth is no longer part of the Federation. (This is just really, really dumb. I mean, I can kinda understand Earth becoming more self sufficient with warp drive becoming scarce, but why would Earth leave the Federation when there wouldn't be a Federation without Earth? And why would Starfleet headquarters leave the planet? Earth has been a potential target PLENTY of times throughout the history of Star Trek because it's the capital of the Federation/Starfleet. It was even attacked during the Dominion War by the Breen! We didn't see them talking about isolating the planet and moving Headquarters then. The idea Earth would leave the Federation, and Starfleet Headquarters moving somewhere unknown just because they don't know if something was an attack in the first place, or if it'll happen again, is ludicrous. Honestly, I feel this goes against everything Star Trek stands for with Gene Roddenberry's vision for the future of humanity with what they've done to Earth.
Spoiler
Edit: Found out the Starfleet Admiral that sent the message was actually a Trill, and while the host died, the symbiont survived. It is now carried by a human (guess medical technology improved, considering Riker and a symbiont weren't compatible in TNG).

They show a fleet of 31st century era Starfleet ships... just before they exploded in The Burn. However, it's only from a distance, so you can't really see them in any great detail. I get the impression that's the point, so they didn't have to spend time fleshing out a couple of new designs, that and several are just copy/pasted (which is a little better than Picard having the ENTIRE fleet all just one copy/pasted design). A few are decent enough generic Starfleet designs, while others are pretty bad IMO (one ship design is essentially a flying donut for example).

It's odd to me the Earth ships don't look like Starfleet ships, considering Starfleet was predominantly human based designs. But I suppose it's possible these designs are meant for planetary defense rather than space exploration... but still, I'd expect hints of a design lineage there. I gather the episode basically treats Earth like a planet of the week.

When Saru gives their cover story to the "United Earth Defense Force", he's asked how they survived The Burn, to which he explained they weren't at warp at the time... Which really doesn't work. The Burn is said to have happened to every ship with an active warp core, whether they were at warp or not. In fact, the entire fleet of ships they showed explode were idle at the time. Captain Ndoye didn't really seem to buy the story regardless, and also didn't really seem to care (being more interested in getting Discovery to leave Earth), but she also doesn't call Saru out on what should be an obvious lie here, suggesting a(nother) mistake on the writer's part.

Saru is given the position of Captain of Discovery by Burnham, since she has realized she may never be right for the position. I'm not sure why this is even a question they apparently had planned to have a discussion about. As first officer, chain of command falls on Saru to become Captain regardless. And Saru has often been the defacto Captain of the ship in the absence of one anyway.

Do aliens even still live on Earth in this century?

Continuity nitpick: Discovery apparently has Synthahol, despite TNG episode "Relics" established that it wasn't invented until the 24th century, as Scotty had never even heard of synthahol before, and Data had to explain it to him. Despite travelling 900+ years into the future to stop stepping on continuity, somehow they're still managing to do it.
Edit: Oops, meant to edit my previous post, but accidentally quoted it instead....
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Tidbits from episode 4...
Spoiler
Discovery goes to the Trill homeworld (once again using the Spore Drive that they said they would stop using because it damages the Mycelial network), in order to unlock the symbionts memories that Adira carries. She was one of the "United Earth Defense Force" inspectors that asked to join the crew to look for Starfleet Headquarters. Apparently Adira remembers nothing of her life before being picked up in an escape pod at Earth.

The Trill are not pleased a symbiont has joined with a non-Trill (even though we've seen outsiders, like Riker, at least temporarily become a host), especially when they learn the memories of the symbiont haven't transferred to the host. The Trill want to remove the symbiont from her, even if it means killing the host. Also, apparently Trill isn't a part of the Federation anymore, so they don't have to abide by Federation laws (even though the Federation has always respected the sovereignty of any given planet in such matters).

One of the Guardians says that The Burn decimated the Trill population, and now they don't have enough viable hosts for all the symbionts... Which is a continuity error... In DS9, we learned that actually, any Trill can become a host. They only had the strict selection process for joining because they didn't have enough symbionts for the entire population. Seriously, do these writers do ANY research?

On Discovery, while the crew might be well physically, they aren't doing so well mentally. And the computer is beginning to merge with the Sphere data they got last season, as it begins to develop a mind of its own. Saru calls for a level 10 diagnostic (!! there are only 5 diagnostic levels, and I think they've got the order reversed, with level 1 being the most thorough, level 5 being more routine and quick), to which the computer says it's fully operational.

The same Guardian ends up taking Burnham and Adira to the caves of Mak'ala. Apparently he feels a human being able to join with a symbiont will be salvation for their people, as it means others species beyond the Trill will be able to become joined (seriously, the DS9 episode where the caves of Mak'ala were first introduced was also the episode it was established any Trill can become joined, the Symbiosis Commission just kept secret from the general public. Did the Discovery writers not watch the whole thing?). The pools allow her to connect with the symbiont at last, although Burnham needs to help out a little by accompanying her on her vision quest to unlock the memories.

So Adira is able to remember she was living on a generational ship with her boyfriend Gray Tal, (I guess he got the symbiont when Admiral Senna Tal died, but I'm not clear on the timeline of events here), when an asteroid (REALLY?! in the 32nd century, the ship gets hit by an asteroid?!? Were are the sensors to detect it? Shields? Deflectors? common!) hits their quarters, mortally wounding Gray. In order to preserve the symbiont and all the memories it carries, Adira volunteered to have the medical droids (they got automated medical droids but no shields?) transfer the symbiont to her. (And they seem to be implying that Adira didn't have any special medical procedures to make her more compatible with the symbiont, as they continue this false assertion only a select few can become hosts, and apparently that applies regardless of species, even though that makes no sense). Following the experience, she is introduced to the past hosts whom welcome her into the circle and she becomes Adira Tal. The Trill, realizing that they were wrong to judge against her so quickly, decide that if Discovery finds the Federation, perhaps it'll be time they have more than one kind of joining.

Back on Discovery, now that Adira has access to the Tal symbiont's memoires, she can see and talk to Gray (which they kinda suggest isn't normal, as Gray says he doesn't know how he's there. Is he, or any of the other previous hosts, not familiar with the Right of Emergence like Ezri performed to manifest Joran in the same way?)...

I've managed to catch quite a few clips of this episode online. I did really enjoy the scenes with Adira and Gray. Aside from Saru, these are the first Discovery created characters I've actually liked. And it was great to see Trill again. But, once again, Discovery just can't seem to help itself by breaking continuity.
Last edited by Sparky Prime on Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shockwave
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

They don't care. We unfortunately (and I blame The Simpsons partially, but mostly Family Guy for this) live in a culture where "Hey! Remember this!?" is considered good writing. As long as something references that thing you remember, it's supposed to be considered good and that alone is not actually good enough. Writers lack the understanding that the REASON for referencing something is important. You go back to or make reference to something, not for nostalgia, but because it's necessary for the story. Cobra Kai on Netflix is a perfect example of this. The first maybe half of the first season was hitting the same beats as the movies but then it becomes it's own thing that really could only exist in that setting. When I watch stuff now I often find myself asking "why isn't this it's own separate thing?". With Star Trek they absolutely should just scrap it and make something new, shorn of the Star Trek brand. With Cobra Kai, I would have found myself asking "why didn't they just make this Karate Kid?". That's how you do it right. So yeah, they don't care, they just think that as long as they keep making reference to "that thing you like" that we'll eat it up and consider it good.
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Re: Star Trek

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I mean, yeah, we certainly live in a culture where so many shows make references, and we're just supposed to eat it up for nothing more than nostalgia. And while that alone doesn't make the writing good, I'd have to argue shows like Family Guy at least know how to make such references accurately... While Discovery's writers can't seem to even do that right. With Discovery, they always seem to only get it half right, or change something about it to make it fit a completely different narrative that has nothing to do with the reference. The planet Boreth for an example... In TNG it was a planet the Klingon's believed Kahless would some day return to them at, making it of religious significance to them. In Discovery, it's a planet that has magic time crystals a few Klingon monks watch over, but they don't mention anything that ties it to anything previously established about the planet. At that point, why even bother with the reference when it might as well have been a completely different planet? They did a little better with the Trill, but they only got it about half right. So it doesn't really even matter that there isn't much purpose behind using the references when they can't even get the reference right in the first place.
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

Exactly. I completely agree. Family Guy does at least get the reference right, but a lot of the times, they're just references for the sake of references and don't really have any impact on the plot. They're just gags. Heck, they even made a gag of them being gags a few times. With the current Trek output, it feels like they're jingling keys in front of us with the hope of distracting us from the shitty writing and it doesn't work.

AND, on top of that, we have a series like The Orville, that is VERY Star Trek referential, but again, still manages to get it right. There was one episode where they had accidentally started a religion on a planet they went to. But time on the planet moved considerably faster than on the ship. This was basically two different Star Trek episodes put together: TOS "A Piece of the Action" and the Voyager episode where the planet's time moves faster (like seconds on Voyager was decades on the planet).
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:30 pm Exactly. I completely agree. Family Guy does at least get the reference right, but a lot of the times, they're just references for the sake of references and don't really have any impact on the plot. They're just gags. Heck, they even made a gag of them being gags a few times. With the current Trek output, it feels like they're jingling keys in front of us with the hope of distracting us from the shitty writing and it doesn't work.
Yeah. In general I can forgive a show like Family Guy, when they're making a reference for a gag, and they do it accurately. But when a show is making a reference just for the sake of reference, especially when they can't even do it accurately... It's obvious they don't really know the material, and are just hoping to distract the audience.

I also wanted to make a correction. I'd said DS9 established all Trill could be joined. Well, I rewatched the episode, and they actually say half the population is suitable for being joined. But still, considering the population of an entire planet... Even if the Trll population was halved by The Burn, we're still talking probably millions of people capable of joining with a symbiont. So either way, Discovery got it wrong.
AND, on top of that, we have a series like The Orville, that is VERY Star Trek referential, but again, still manages to get it right. There was one episode where they had accidentally started a religion on a planet they went to. But time on the planet moved considerably faster than on the ship. This was basically two different Star Trek episodes put together: TOS "A Piece of the Action" and the Voyager episode where the planet's time moves faster (like seconds on Voyager was decades on the planet).
That's easily one of the best Voyager episodes IMO. The premise of a planet where time moves faster than the rest of the universe is an interesting idea to see played out. I haven't seen Orville, save for a few clips here and there, I just haven't gotten around to that series. But I have to say, I have liked the little I have seen, and everything I've heard about it is that it is more like Star Trek than Discovery is.
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Shockwave »

It's definitely more like Star Trek than Discovery. Some of it (like the episode I mentioned), are ideas directly taken from Star Trek while others are more original. And they've even had a few of the actors from Star Trek on there (Tim Russ was in one episode). I think they also have a lot of the writers and producers from TNG, so that should tell you something right there.
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Sparky Prime
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Shockwave wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:28 am It's definitely more like Star Trek than Discovery. Some of it (like the episode I mentioned), are ideas directly taken from Star Trek while others are more original. And they've even had a few of the actors from Star Trek on there (Tim Russ was in one episode). I think they also have a lot of the writers and producers from TNG, so that should tell you something right there.
Yeah, Brannon Braga, Jonathan Frakes and Robert Duncan McNeill have been involved with Orville behind the scenes amongst others, besides several guest stars who've also been on Star Trek. Discovery has had Brian Fuller (left the show before even completing the first episode), Jonathan Frakes directed a couple episodes and Kirsten Beyer (who was a writer on Voyager, but none of her story pitches for Voyager got picked up, and then wrote several Voyager novels)... But besides those 3, I don't know of any other Star Trek alumni that have worked on Discovery... Which like you say, says a lot.
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Re: Star Trek

Post by Sparky Prime »

Tidbits from Discovery season 3 episode 5
Spoiler
Discovery finally arrives at Starfleet headquarters (which I guess is also Federation HQ since they still seem to be using the terms interchangeably. EDIT: The Admiral does mention what's left of the Federation government is there). HQ is no longer based on a planet apparently, it's inside a distortion field generated by a space station, with several ships pooling their energies to project the field (Whenever we see Starfleet using some sort of invisibility technology, I can't help but think of Gene Roddenberry's reasoning for Starfleet not having cloaking technology..."Our heroes don't sneak around", so it feels off they're hiding their headquarters). The crew are amazed by the ships, observing some of their hulls appear to be comprised of metals they thought were only theoretical, organic elements and holographic containment walls.

One ship a crewmember wonders aloud is if it's a "new Constitution" (not sure if she means class or just the name of the ship), and is amazed it looks like it could carry 1000-2000 crewmembers. Even though the Enterprise from their time could carry close to 500 crew, not to mention these creators seem to like to arbitrarily upscale the ships, so it probably could have had 1000 people in this series. Edit: Apparently Constitution was the name of the ship according the Memory Alpha. There was also a ship named for Nog, and is an Eisenberg-class vessel (although they don't say that in the episode) named for the late actor in his honor.

They pass by a giant flying rainforest. I guess no longer being based on/near a planet, this could provide them with clean air and possibly some food as well... But it seems a little odd when they've got advanced technology that'd make this unnecessary.

One of the ships they see is the USS Voyager NCC-74656-J.
Honestly this was a highlight. It's great to see that, like the Enterprise, Voyager got a legacy registry.

38 member worlds remain of the Federation, from 350 worlds at it's peak. The Admiral isn't sure if there are more that still consider themselves Federation worlds, given subspace relays are down. After 120 years, they haven't had the time/ability to contact them all? Shouldn't that be a priority? Burnham was able to get a message to, and from, Terralysium, which was established to be 51 thousand light years away from Earth. She said it took a few months to get the reply, but still, within a year.

During Georgiou's debrief, she disables 32nd century holograms by... blinking at them. This is just really dumb. How would such advanced hologram technology have such a glitch, but also, how is it she could figure it out and tells them they need to upgrade their programming, when she's 900+ years out of date? This technology should be well beyond her understanding. Something I noticed from the clips I've seen, the holograms also have sort of a voice modulation that makes them sound artificial. All this makes these holograms feel less advanced than every hologram we've ever seen in Star Trek. And apparently Starfleet has mapped the genome of people from the mirror universe and found... they have a gene that makes them evil. Somehow the writing of this show just keeps getting worst.

The Mirror universe and the "Prime" universe have been drifting apart. No one has crossed over between the two in 500 years.

Burnham asks what Starfleet thinks caused the Burn, but Starfleet isn't sure they can trust Discovery and crew, given they have no records to corroborate their story and their files say the ship was destroyed in the 23rd century. They want to reassign the crew and retrofit Discovery, but Saru and Burnham manage to convince Starfleet to keep them together after proving themselves on a mission to recover seeds (from a Starfleet ship that has a vault of "all the seeds in the galaxy" that apparently has been floating around since the 23rd century) that can save some people from a plague.

So after proving themselves, Burnham again asks the Admiral about Starfleet's thoughts on the Burn, and while he's still a bit unsure about trusting the Discovery crew and wont share their intelligence yet, they have no idea what actually caused it, just plenty of theories... So why couldn't he have told them that much earlier? He still really didn't tell them anything.

The writers have just completely thrown out the idea Discovery would stop using the Spore Drive to prevent causing damage to the mycelial network, they keep using it.
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Re: Star Trek

Post by andersonh1 »

I'm glad to see Voyager getting some love in modern Trek. For so long it seemed like that show was the "black sheep" of 90s Trek, so it's nice to know it hasn't been forgotten and dismissed. There were certainly more Voyager callbacks in "Picard" than DS9 callbacks, and now Discovery has made Voyager a legacy ship name? Cool.
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