Star Trek

[andersonh1]

So now the word is that the new Trek show will be for the "MTV crowd", and by that they mean the young people -- despite the phrase "MTV crowd" referring to those now in their 40s. So a faster-paced, shallow show starring a young cast. And they expect those youngsters to cough up $6 a month for that shit. Good luck, chumps.

That doesn't sound promising.

Voyager has been mostly crumbling due to Harry Kim and Chakotay along with just bad scripts and bad producing, but there's still some interest.

All of Chakotay's best story material comes in the first two seasons. Once the Maquis conflict disappears, so does his character, essentially.

One of Voyager's biggest problems during the middle seasons (3-6, generally speaking) is the desire of the writers to avoid much of an ongoing storyline, so that viewers can drop in any time and view any episode without having to get up to speed. It's the opposite of the serialized DS9 approach. The other problem is how much the writers love stories about the Doctor and Seven of Nine to the exclusion of all the other characters. The result is a show where 80% of the cast gets little or no development and aren't allowed to go anywhere. It's a huge relief to hit season 7 and start seeing actual forward motion again with some of the other characters.

The other problem is that the writers and producers genuinely didn't care much about the show. Ron Moore tells a story about going to work for Voyager and quitting within a few weeks or months because he wanted to do some things to develop the characters and tighten up continuity, but was told that it wasn't going to happen.

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Then it just turned into this other thing, and it was this bad trip, and it was a bad place to work, and it was an unhappy experience. I was surrounded by people that were unhappy working there, and didn’t like their own show, and weren’t pleased with the people they were working with. It’s a bad thing to work through. Part of me is hurt, and a bit angry at Brannon on a personal level, as my friend, not as my boss. As my friend, I felt pretty pissed off. I am not angry any more. I am just grateful that I don’t have to be there. I am just happy that I am not working on that show every day. I know it hasn’t gotten any easier."

Moore laughs, "I know that life hasn’t gotten better. It hasn’t had this epiphany and turned the corner. It’s not a happy ship, the good ship Voyager. If I had not gone there, I think I would have always wondered, ‘Maybe I should have gone. Maybe it would have worked out. Maybe I would have been involved in the new series. Maybe that was a missed opportunity.’ Now I know that none of that is true, that I didn’t miss out on any opportunities. It wasn’t going to be fun."

What did exactly push Moore out? Others have said that story meetings were held without Moore’s knowledge, and that things were done behind his back. Most of this he still keeps to himself and to those nearest to him. He will say, "I have very hurt feelings about Brannon. What happened between he and I is just between he and I. It was a breakdown of trust. I would have quit any show where I was not allowed to participate in the process like that. I wasn’t allowed to participate in the process, and I wasn’t part of the show. I felt like I was freelancing my own show. That was the feeling I had. I wasn’t involved in it enough. Part of me said, ‘So what? You’ve got a baby. You are making a lot of money. Shut up, enjoy it; go home early; go in late; relax. You’ve had a long ten years; take a break.’ But I couldn’t. It just ate at me. It was an integrity issue. I took a lot of pride in the work. The work matters to me. I took a lot of pride in what I did on TNG and DS9 and the movies. I just couldn’t work that way."

What I found on VOYAGER was suddenly it wasn’t about the work anymore. It wasn’t about making the best show that we possibly could; it was about all these other extraneous issues. It was about the politics of the show, and the strange sort of competition of egos within the writing staff and the producing staff and the management of the show. ‘Competition’ is probably a misleading term. The politics of the show were such that the egos of the people in charge of the series were threatened by the people who worked for them. To be blunt, [writers] Bryan Fuller and Mike Taylor were treated very shabbily, and it pissed me off. They took a lot of crap, and the only reason it was done was to keep the guys on the top of the pyramid feeling good about themselves. It also had the effect of keeping the writing staff from working in concert as a group. The DS9 staff by contrast was very tight.

[Sparky Prime]

So now the word is that the new Trek show will be for the "MTV crowd", and by that they mean the young people -- despite the phrase "MTV crowd" referring to those now in their 40s. So a faster-paced, shallow show starring a young cast. And they expect those youngsters to cough up $6 a month for that shit. Good luck, chumps.

People still use the phrase "MTV crowd"? Yeah, that in itself is dated.

The other problem is that the writers and producers genuinely didn't care much about the show. Ron Moore tells a story about going to work for Voyager and quitting within a few weeks or months because he wanted to do some things to develop the characters and tighten up continuity, but was told that it wasn't going to happen.

He and Brannon Braga had a big falling out, and Braga wouldn't let him have any creative input on the show. I recall reading that Braga even began holding writers meetings at his house which he didn't invite Moore to. So I kinda think that may have tainted his views of the other writers on Voyager considering the treatment he got.

[andersonh1]

Just finished watching "First Contact" for the first time in a number of years, and while it's held up well, who in the world thought it was a good idea to make Zefram Cochrane a drunk? Am I supposed to believe the genius that invented warp drive is a raging alcoholic? One can't blame the Vulcans for having a low opinion of humanity with him as an example.

[JediTricks]

Walter Koenig is retiring the character of Chekov in a Star Trek fan film, specifically the sequel to another one he did, Star Trek Renegades:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/145 ... s-2-and-3/

It looks interesting if perhaps a bit piecemeal, but I plan on watching the first episode with my Trek group to see what we think.

That doesn't sound promising.

"Star Trek: That Doesn't Sound Promising" perfect title.

All of Chakotay's best story material comes in the first two seasons. Once the Maquis conflict disappears, so does his character, essentially.

Even then, he's barely a foil, he's barely got anything to do or say other than argue feebly with Janeway. And then, as you said, he becomes a total limp noodle.

One of Voyager's biggest problems during the middle seasons (3-6, generally speaking) is the desire of the writers to avoid much of an ongoing storyline, so that viewers can drop in any time and view any episode without having to get up to speed. It's the opposite of the serialized DS9 approach. The other problem is how much the writers love stories about the Doctor and Seven of Nine to the exclusion of all the other characters. The result is a show where 80% of the cast gets little or no development and aren't allowed to go anywhere. It's a huge relief to hit season 7 and start seeing actual forward motion again with some of the other characters.

Honestly, in reviewing DS9 and now Babylon 5 it's become apparent that over-serialization is reasonably viewed as a burden, it's horribly inaccessible to new audiences and it is difficult to keep sight of its core message. That said, there should be smaller arcs, there should be direction beyond a simple goal, and Voyager is clumsy with that to an extreme, sometimes eschewing it completely and other times dropping in and out without a sense of honesty to the material.

That's an interesting point about the Doctor and Seven, as they and Neelix are the only characters not weighed down by desire to return to the Alpha quadrant. It's like every other character is defined solely by being lost, making those people less compelling even than the castaways of Gilligan's Island. Hadn't thought about that before.

The other problem is that the writers and producers genuinely didn't care much about the show. Ron Moore tells a story about going to work for Voyager and quitting within a few weeks or months because he wanted to do some things to develop the characters and tighten up continuity, but was told that it wasn't going to happen.

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Oof, fucking Berman and Braga setting this up for failure, that was brutal to read.

So now the word is that the new Trek show will be for the "MTV crowd", and by that they mean the young people -- despite the phrase "MTV crowd" referring to those now in their 40s. So a faster-paced, shallow show starring a young cast. And they expect those youngsters to cough up $6 a month for that shit. Good luck, chumps.

People still use the phrase "MTV crowd"? Yeah, that in itself is dated.

RIGHT?!? It's bonkers that anyone would say that without irony.

Just finished watching "First Contact" for the first time in a number of years, and while it's held up well, who in the world thought it was a good idea to make Zefram Cochrane a drunk? Am I supposed to believe the genius that invented warp drive is a raging alcoholic? One can't blame the Vulcans for having a low opinion of humanity with him as an example.

Why wouldn't he be a drinker? Plenty of scientific types are, and there's no longer a system to keep him in check, he doesn't answer to NASA. My grandpa on my dad's side was a notable aerospace engineer and a huge pothead for decades of his career as well as dabbling in harder drugs in the '60s and '70s, and he still designed massive undertakings with a slide rule.

That said, the Vulcans are supposed to be logical creatures, they shouldn't base their belief system off one guy, that's racism by stereotype which is senseless bigotry. And yet, the Vulcans are shown to be bigots on occasion in every walk of the series. Dichotomy!


Unrelated, but the definitive Voyager torpedo count video is hilarious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k

and this is... indescribable in its watchability:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFAiCB7YmmY

[andersonh1]

Unrelated, but the definitive Voyager torpedo count video is hilarious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k

Ha! Someone needs to produce a similar video that counts how many shuttles are destroyed.

[JediTricks]

Unrelated, but the definitive Voyager torpedo count video is hilarious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k

Ha! Someone needs to produce a similar video that counts how many shuttles are destroyed.

Holy shit, that's exactly what we were saying! It's fate, it must happen.

[Sparky Prime]

Trekcore.com (potential Spoiler Warning!) has posted an image of a poster, which a lucky fan was able to win during a fundraiser, which shows a Federation Starship that will appear in the new film. Sharp eyed fans had noticed the name of this ship is seen on a jacket Spock wears in the trailer.

Spoiler

Reminds me a bit of the NX-Class. I hate the viewscreen window on it though. It looks completely disproportionate to the rest of the ship. But then scale is something the nuTrek films have struggled with.

[andersonh1]

That does look like the

Spoiler

NX-01

. Interesting design choice there.

So, any of you who indulge in chronological Trek marathons... do you watch every episode of a Trek series, or do you skip the ones you don't like? How do you decide? We're going through Voyager right now, and we've reached the infamous "Threshold". I decided to watch it, because... I don't know. It didn't bother me as much as I remembered. Back when Voyager was on the air, and I remember this clearly, it was the episode that started making me question why I was watching the show. And the sad thing is that it starts out with in interesting premise: breaking the Warp 10 barrier, a seeming impossibility. Then Tom Paris turns into a giant space newt, and so does Janeway, and they have mutant babies, and the whole thing just goes so far off the rails it's amazing to watch. And somehow the physical transformation is reversed so they look exactly like they did before.... one gets the feeling that Braga had a good idea for the episode with the Warp test, had nowhere to go and a deadline, and just wrote the first things that came into his head. Possibly after a night of heavy drinking.

At least he's admitted it was a bad episode. His confession is in the DVD extras for all to see.

[Onslaught Six]

I've only really watched TNG. But when I watch it, I do just watch it straight through, because IMO after early S2 there aren't any really bad episodes until the last season.

[Shockwave]

For me the worst Voyager episode was "elogium". The one where Kes... goes into heat (for lack of a better term). She basically begins her mating cycle... which is just so batshit crazy that you have to wonder how the species didn't die out after two generations and gets even more batshit crazy as the episode goes on. It's one of the things that makes her what I call a "kitchen sink" character. Where they dump every weird thing including the kitchen sink into her. It's also one of the main reasons why I was glad to see her go. It's like they really didn't know what to do with her character. And her return later was just as batshit as she was the rest of the time.

As for the question, I tend to watch the entire series beginning to end, I only skip episodes if they're extremely bad. I can't think of any in TNG that I skip, TOS has a few in the beginning, DS9 and Voyager obviously have a few and for Enterprise I pretty much just watch the two episodes I like: "In a Mirror, darkly" and the last one where Riker says "End program" and deletes the whole series.