Time Lines #8 (Termination) discussion

[Dominic]

I have yet to read this year's BotCon comic.

But, apparently, there is a plot point where some Autobots disguise themselves as civilians in order to pull of a sneak-attack.

David Willis and some other fans object to this because the "Autobots are committing war crimes" and it arguably endangers civilians later by virtue of giving the Decepticons incentive to kill civilians pre-emptively.


My response (before having a chance to read the comic):

-define "War Crime". Calling something a crime implie a recognized and enforcable legal mandate. Do Transformers have formal restrictons against the tactics shown in the comic? If so, who enforces them?

-are Decepticons known for showing restraint with civilians anyway?

[BWprowl]

Furthermore, isn't Transformers disguising themselves as innocuous alternate forms kind of the entire premise of the franchise?

[Dominic]

Many of those innocent looking alternate modes also had hidden weapons (guns poppiong out of panels and such). Sneak attacks have long been a thing in TF.


Of course, the real problem here is that this is Willis making the tired complaints about how it is necessary for main characters to be likable and/or for heroes to not kill. (Watch "LInkara". In just about every episode, he complains about the main characters being jerks, even if there is no reason for them to be nice guys. Similarly, he complains about character death all the damned time.)


And, the irony is that there are likely a dozen legitimate complaints to make about this book. But, everybody is talking about "bawwwww, the Autobots are mean".


-Dom dislikes defending Fun Publications.....

[BWprowl]

And, the irony is that there are likely a dozen legitimate complaints to make about this book. But, everybody is talking about "bawwwww, the Autobots are mean".

First it was Willis, now it's 'everybody'? I haven't read any other views on the comic, is 'everyone' really complaining about Robots in Disguise (as civilians)?

Also, Willis's opinion on anything isn't really worth anything. I mean, he thinks that the Warpath mold works well for Strika! No it doesn't, the proportions are so wrong it's not even funny, and the altmodes are completely different!

I haven't even read the comic yet (I should download a scan of the trainwreck when I get home, if I can find one), but my main complaints are still about all this clone nonsense, sticking Obsidian and Strika in as 'Machine Wars' characters, which they have no business being, and missing the point of Megaplex so badly that they might as well not have used him.

-Dom dislikes defending Fun Publications.....

It gets extra-weird when you realize that Willis is actually employed by FunPub, and yet he still complains about their output, but...

[Dominic]

Okay, one more before I disappear for a bit more time (likely until I get a chance to read the comic myself):


http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.ph ... &start=180


The writer of the comic responds. (Lets put aside the obvious temptation to laugh at Walky, who apparently pitched quite a fit over this and is not bawwing about it.) The writer....actually addresses concerns. I am not going to defend his technical skills (based on the FP Joe comics I have read). But, at least he tries to make a point, and can articulate it.

Interesting points for discussion:

Okay then, the BotCon comic. I have to admit that the Geneva Convention never even entered in my mind when I was writing this scene. Not only because it deals with alien robots that transform into built in disguises and have been fighting a semi-constant war for over 9 million years (I understand the counter argument about Transformers fiction being its best when reflecting humanity, but humanity very seldom follow their own rules), but also due to the nature of this particular "battle". My take on Obsidian and Strika is that they are students of ALL forms of warfare, not just the conventional and not just the kind that involves two standing armies engaged in a set battlefield. They know guerrilla warfare just as well, and they're not the ones to ignore its advantages.

Hey, good point. And, it should be pointed out that Churchill arguably called for citizens of England to engage in guerilla tactics (terrorism) with his unused "kill the hun" speech (to have been given in the event of Nazis invading the UK).

The point here though is that neither she, nor Obsidian, are Optimus Prime. They are both willing to set aside honorable combat in order to defend their homeworld.

Somebody at Fun Publications gets it!

That doesn't mean that their tactics are being celebrated in the comic. Nor is the silence from the other Autobots evidence of this. In that first flashback, Hoist and Rewind express dread when they realize who will be replacing the injured Optimus Prime, a dread not brought on by they inability to understand Obsidian's orders but by their understanding of just who Strika and Obsidian are. They aren't the most pleasant Generals to serve under. They expect obedience even if their orders are...questionable. (Maybe this is why Strika has her tank drones - a lack of willing soldiers to fight under her command.)

And, they are thinking about it.

They're not really "innocent civilians", but barely even individuals. They're animalistic scavengers whose higher brain functions no longer operate, and seek to survive through any means possible.

Somebody might take this as a jab at junkies/derelicts/homeless. Hoooooo boy.....

In all seriousness, this might actually turn in to an intelligent discussion of a BotCon comic.... Wow.


-Delerious Dom....

[Tigermegatron]

Also, Willis's opinion on anything isn't really worth anything.!

David willis,as most veteran on-line TF fans know,Is more of a negative embarassment impact than a positive impact on the various TF forums. He literally gets joy & loves to bully,harass,embarass & mock fellow on-line TF fans via forums/blogs/face book/twitter,etc...

[Onslaught Six]

The hilarious part is that this isn't exactly guys like Bluestreak or Jazz or fucking Bumblebee, here--they're Stryka and Obsidian, guys who, in the future are fucking bad guys. I mean, what the hell? Doesn't every single "good guy turns bad" story have elements where a character is still obviously aligned to the side of Good, but is toeing the line and doing things that are Obviously Bad? That's what the entire discussion we were having about Prowl in RID was about! Literally that!

I mean, Anakin Skywalker does a shitload of bad things while still being aligned to the Jedi cause in the prequel trilogy. Sinestro doesn't instantly become a Yellow Lantern or whatever the first time he offs some dude. Sentinel Prime in IDW is a fucking dickhead who proudly waves the Autobot banner.

Just because someone's got a big red face on them doesn't mean they need to be a paragon of All That Is Good And Righteous. There can be bad Autobots and good Decepticons--and if they go far enough, they become the other one.


On a side note: Walky is considering quitting Recordicons because of this, and there are...people who are upset about that, for some reason?

[Dominic]

The hilarious part is that this isn't exactly guys like Bluestreak or Jazz or fucking Bumblebee......

Oh, yeah, those '84 and '85 guys were sweethearts. The never stooped to tactics like mind-control or kidnapping, aside from that time they did in "The Core". Hey, remember the time they created 3 sparkless killing machines, and then made two more? (The Dinobots.)

On a side note: Walky is considering quitting Recordicons because of this, and there are...people who are upset about that, for some reason?

One of the people saying "Walky, please stay" was Sinclair. They probably do not want to have the drama of the little orange fuckwit leaving. As hard as it is to believe, Walky does have a following.

[BWprowl]

Oh, yeah, those '84 and '85 guys were sweethearts. The never stooped to tactics like mind-control or kidnapping, aside from that time they did in "The Core". Hey, remember the time they created 3 sparkless killing machines, and then made two more? (The Dinobots.)

What about that time all the Autobots lured the Decepticons into an ambush by dressing as non-combatant human scientists, under direct orders from Optimus Prime? But this is obviously completely different...

The hilarious part is that this isn't exactly guys like Bluestreak or Jazz or fucking Bumblebee, here--they're Stryka and Obsidian, guys who, in the future are fucking bad guys. I mean, what the hell? Doesn't every single "good guy turns bad" story have elements where a character is still obviously aligned to the side of Good, but is toeing the line and doing things that are Obviously Bad? That's what the entire discussion we were having about Prowl in RID was about! Literally that!

Reading the thread on AllSpark, the impression I got was that Walky went into this story expecting to see Obsidian and Strika portrayed as 'The Greatest Cybertronian Generals' they were talked up as in BM, and was somehow under the impression this meant they were going to be great, virtuous Autobot leaders, and had it all already set in his head that they were 'Heroes' who somehow only went bad when Beast Megatron yanked their sparks out and told them to defend Cybertron a little over 300 (Cybertronian) years later. So when this comic comes out and it turns out they're, surprise, a couple of pragmatic, win-at-any-cost dickheads, this clashed with his established conceits of the characters, and didn't sit well with him. Strika and Obsidian had never actually been shown as 'heroes', and indeed this comic's point was to show that a couple of characters who were exclusively military in function and allegedly won *every single* battle they were in probably weren't the nicest people around, but Walky already had them imagined as heroes, so seeing them Do Bad Things didn't sit right with him, apparently.

And yeah, that does completely ignore the point that any prequel story showing a character who 'goes bad' later down the line probably will (and should) have shades of their turn already showing in their character, but damn, have you read Walky's comics? Basic storytelling is not his strong point.

[Dominic]

Okay, I really need to get back to stuff. But, real quick:

Good catch on the "disguised as human scientists" bit.

So when this comic comes out and it turns out they're, surprise, a couple of pragmatic, win-at-any-cost dickheads,

The thing is that tactics in the comic do not come across as being all that bad. Would Cybertronians have social or legal "rules" against trickery and subterfuge in battle? (All evidence, sarcastic and earnest, points to "no".) Aside from "Universe", Stryka and Obsidian were portrayed as "loyal to Cybertron" and its rulers. They were loyal to institutions, not principles.

Fun Publications is getting that much right. And, again, they were not shown doing anything *that* awful. Walky is just being a complaining complainer who likes to complain.

And yeah, that does completely ignore the point that any prequel story showing a character who 'goes bad' later down the line probably will (and should) have shades of their turn already showing in their character, but damn, have you read Walky's comics? Basic storytelling is not his strong point.

Considering how much of Walky's comics are more or less all about him..... (Oh....dis!)


And, since this has turned in to the "Walky mocking" thread...

His last two blog posts have been about his own idiotic fanon.

Apparently, he is buying in to the idea that the RiD Combaticons were the Wreckers (based on the colours used for the current "Fall of Cybertron" Wreckers being a reference to 2001 Ruination). Sadly, this one might actually end up becoming official even if Walky leaves Fun Publications in an orange huff.

And, in Walky's personal canon, Blastcharge is a Decepticon, not an Autobot and.... Yeah, Walky's Blastcharge is a waste of a perfectly good customizing figure. (Granted, those are less scarce this year, but.....)


-Distracted Dom....