Mars Attacks

[Shockwave]

What's feckless?

[BWprowl]

What's feckless?

Without fecks.

[Sparky Prime]

See, you say that here, but then everything you outline next
*snip*
is just complaining about how McCarthy’s story didn’t fit parts of the continuity Furman had established.

Because that was responding to a specific example you brought up from AHM which *gasp* happens to be an example of a continuity related problem with the story in the first place! What are the odds that a problem with continuity would be met with a response to that effect? And it wasn't all continuity Furman had established that I cited there. "Megatron Origin" was written by Eric Holmes and issue 23 of the ongoing was written by James Roberts.

Like I said, we've discussed, at length, why I thought AHM was terrible in the AHM thread. Would you like me 'bridge' the gap to outline all the problems with AHM all over again?

And here’s the big thing I’ve always honed in on: Furman’s stories *sucked*.

They weren't the greatest, but for the most part I liked what he did with the story more than McCarthy.

But if a writer chooses to ignore parts of a shitty story someone wrote before them, in order to write a superior story? I will absolutely condone that, because I’d much rather have a good story that did its own thing than a shitty story that tried too hard to match up with everything. McCarthy may have thrown out parts of Furman’s arcs, but I don’t mourn the loss of those stories in the slightest; to do so would do a disservice to the story he clearly put a lot of effort and thought into writing.

I don't mind when a writer changes things from another writer's story, but only as long as they explain it within the context of the story. To flat out ignore it and just write whatever they want? That is bad writing which lacks effort and thought. It's part of an ongoing storyline, it needs to be treated as such regardless of how good or bad another writers ideas might be. Part of writing a story is continuity, you can't just ignore it because you didn't like it or it doesn't fit with what you want to do.

Maybe McCarthy did make the Matrix an element of the story where it previously had not been, but in the process, he made the Matrix more interesting than it has been in the entire history of the franchise, and what’s wrong with that?

How did he make the Matrix more interesting? Megatron hid it away. Only a handful of Autobots and Decepticons even knew Megatron had taken it in the first place. The Matrix effectively didn't do anything in AHM except be missing, unknown to the masses. It was Costa's run after AHM in which it actually came into play.

You know what’s telling? Writers that came in after McCarthy, like Costa and Roberts, have happily continued to utilize the Matrix as McCarthy introduced and conceived of it.

It was introduced as the "Autobot Matrix of Leadership" in the animated movie... That's hardly something McCarthy introduced or conceived himself. And once again, the writers have made the Matrix out to be the mystical object it always is. Where as Furman had actually been trying to not use the Matrix for a change.

You know what they haven’t bothered to use? Ore-13, the Magnificence, or the Reapers, the stupid crap Furman tried to push in his stories.

Actually, Ore-13 has come up a couple of times after AHM and the Reapers were eliminated by the Decepticons in Furman's run. The Magnificence, I'd agree was a stupid element, but likely Hot Rod hid it again so that it wouldn't fall into the wrong hands seeing as that's what he did with it the first time he found it.

I’ve always felt vindicated by the fact that, despite all the fans whining about AHM, IDW editorial continues to stand by the storyline and their belief in what it accomplished.

Which is why they brought in a new creative team and relaunched the title again, just as they'd done when they replaced Furman?

IDW's pre-war Cybertron has no small number of back-writes and revisions. AHM is not the only contrary point in IDW G1.

And what's that got to do with the Senators not being Autobots? They've actually been consistent that it was a corrupt Senate having been what pushed Megatron into creating the Decepticons in the first place and that neither faction existed, as we know them, until shortly before the war began.

True. Stealing the damned thing from a dead Prime's tomb was a plot point in MtmtE.

You're leaving out all of the context there. That wasn't the real Matrix. It was a bomb planted by the Senate meant to implicate the growing Decepticon movement. The reason Orion Pax stole it was as a means to maintain the peace, at least for a little while longer, having found out about this plot.

[BWprowl]

Because that was responding to a specific example you brought up from AHM which *gasp* happens to be an example of a continuity related problem with the story in the first place! What are the odds that a problem with continuity would be met with a response to that effect?

Sorry, but I figured that after I pointed out that I already knew you were way too attached to the continuity of the thing even though it didn’t matter, that providing additional examples to convince me of that point *more* wasn’t something that would need to be done.

Like I said, we've discussed, at length, why I thought AHM was terrible in the AHM thread. Would you like me 'bridge' the gap to outline all the problems with AHM all over again?

OH! You got me, you totally nailed me! I’m no match for your superior quality debate skills, since we all know that a single artistic gaffe means the whole story is utter schwarbage!

Seriously, by that logic, ‘Code of Hero’ is the worst episode of Beast Wars ever.

They weren't the greatest, but for the most part I liked what he did with the story more than McCarthy.

Brought no idea-based storytelling to the table and dragged things out so badly that editorial itself got fed up with him?

I don't mind when a writer changes things from another writer's story, but only as long as they explain it within the context of the story. To flat out ignore it and just write whatever they want? That is bad writing which lacks effort and thought. It's part of an ongoing storyline, it needs to be treated as such regardless of how good or bad another writers ideas might be. Part of writing a story is continuity, you can't just ignore it because you didn't like it or it doesn't fit with what you want to do.

Why is it so important that simple additions like “Megatron started the war because of what the Matrix represented” be explained in context? Matching things up with a story that some hack wrote before you shouldn’t even be part of writing; if it was, we’d have had to spend the opening minutes of the rebooted Batman or Spider-Man movies showing some universe-resetting cataclysm that explains why everything’s different now. No one cares, and it does the audience a disservice to assume they’re too dumb to figure out that some tweaks are being made for the sake of the concepts in this new writer’s story. Why is it you can come up with your own fan-wank explanation for why Carol Ferris isn’t Queen of the Star Sapphires anymore, but you can’t be assed to use your head to paper over the inconsistencies in McCarthy’s run?

When the crap someone put before you doesn’t lend itself completely to the ideas you want to put forward and the story you want to write, you are absolutely justified in discarding and drawing from that, and doubly so in a story that was intended as a soft reboot of the continuity and the franchise. What McCarthy did is no worse than someone else passing off a crappy Dr. Doom story as actually being a Doombot.

How did he make the Matrix more interesting? Megatron hid it away. Only a handful of Autobots and Decepticons even knew Megatron had taken it in the first place. The Matrix effectively didn't do anything in AHM except be missing, unknown to the masses. It was Costa's run after AHM in which it actually came into play.

It was introduced as the "Autobot Matrix of Leadership" in the animated movie... That's hardly something McCarthy introduced or conceived himself. And once again, the writers have made the Matrix out to be the mystical object it always is. Where as Furman had actually been trying to not use the Matrix for a change.

And this is what we mean when we talk about writing over people’s heads. McCarthy’s iteration of the Matrix was very carefully treated not purely as a magical McGuffin that did whatever the plot needed to at a given point. The concept that it ‘could’ have mystical power, but was never shown to until very late in the game, was the way McCarthy re-defined it. Megatron wanted the Matrix because he was under the impression it must have some great power, being the source of Optimus Prime’s leadership over the Autobots. When he takes it, he is unable to unlock or find said mystical power, yet he still, somewhat unknowingly, attains its leadership attributes, removing that aspect from the Autobots and devastating the morale of their own commanding circle (Prowl, Jazz, and Kup being completely unable to cope or re-rally their team with its loss. Even without Prime, they would have conceivably been able to unite the Autobots for another go at the Decepticons had they had the Matrix). The fact that we *don’t know* what the Matrix does in this continuity, yet still have it defined as a symbol of leadership, is very much a conception of McCarthy’s, and one that other writers would continue using (Costa’s stories in particular, like the Coda story with Starscream and the Matrix, or Hot Rod becoming ‘Rodimus Prime’ because of the Matrix, but in a symbolic way because of what he chooses to do with it, rather than a literal power-up).

Which is why they brought in a new creative team and relaunched the title again, just as they'd done when they replaced Furman?

The difference is that McCarthy was allowed to complete his run, even have it expanded on due to their demand (the AHM Coda series being re-numbered to continue AHM’s numerical run). With Furman, they kicked him over to the Spotlight books and gave him just four issues to wrap up his BS because they were just sick of him.

And what's that got to do with the Senators not being Autobots? They've actually been consistent that it was a corrupt Senate having been what pushed Megatron into creating the Decepticons in the first place and that neither faction existed, as we know them, until shortly before the war began.

This is all because I mis-spoke. I shouldn’t have said ‘Autobots’, but the Matrix was still emblematic of the corrupt Senate that Megatron was responding against when he started the war. Power bestowed upon a single ‘chosen one’ with no regard for the efforts of the lower classes or others who actually built the government the Senate was running? I’d say that’s what ‘the Matrix Represented’ and why Megatron started his uprising.

You're leaving out all of the context there. That wasn't the real Matrix. It was a bomb planted by the Senate meant to implicate the growing Decepticon movement. The reason Orion Pax stole it was as a means to maintain the peace, at least for a little while longer, having found out about this plot.

So…you don’t see any symbolic value in stealing a fake version of a leadership artifact from a corrupt leader’s body, before the presence of that artifact could cause a peace-shattering catastrophe? Here we have a situation where the ‘Matrix’ was set to ignite a war, to be the thing that spurred all the ‘Auto-Bots’ into action for a corrupt purpose; the bomb-Matrix was clearly representative of the corrupt leadership of the Senate. Orion Pax had to remove that corrupt element, and would later take the ‘real’ Matrix into him, to become the true leader of the Autobots, and unite them in action for a more altruistic goal, representing the Autobots’ shift to more ‘pure’ leadership. It absolutely had everything to do with how the Matrix has been defined in IDW since McCarthy brought it in.

[andersonh1]

The difference is that McCarthy was allowed to complete his run, even have it expanded on due to their demand (the AHM Coda series being re-numbered to continue AHM’s numerical run). With Furman, they kicked him over to the Spotlight books and gave him just four issues to wrap up his BS because they were just sick of him.

Do you have a link talking about the attitude of the editors being the reason behind letting Furman go? My impression has always been that it was due to sales, which were on a steep downward trajectory from day one. That's not entirely Furman's fault, since it seems to be a pattern that many comics have a strong launch and then die off slowly, or plunge down in sales until they find some level of stability. And in the case of Transformers, it was the end of the 80s nostalgia boom as well.

But yeah, my impression was that falling sales did Furman in, not editorial dissatisfaction with his writing.

[Onslaught Six]

Remember, Furman's run wasn't just the main books, but also (at various points) the BW books and even some movie stuff. Furman was all over the place and phoned in a lot of stuff for a paycheck. It's not a surprise they cut him back to where he ended up.

[Dominic]

What's feckless?

IDW's editorial staff circa 2008!

(Joking aside, it means irresponsible/lazy. That is a fair criticism of IDW's over-all editorial policy with TF until mid-way through Costa's run.)

OH! You got me, you totally nailed me! I’m no match for your superior quality debate skills, since we all know that a single artistic gaffe means the whole story is utter schwarbage!

Seriously, by that logic, ‘Code of Hero’ is the worst episode of Beast Wars ever.

Even more fundamentally, the art mistakes are (most likely) not McCarthy's fault. Short of having the original scripts in front of us, we cannot be sure. But, typically, art mistakes are the fault of the artist. And, it is the editor's job to catch that sort of thing. (I actually recall McCarthy attributing the bridge mistake to a fill-in artist working under a serious deadline crunch, and McCarthy said he would have been willing to miss the deadline in order to have avoided rush mistakes.)

Brought no idea-based storytelling to the table and dragged things out so badly that editorial itself got fed up with him?

In fairness to Furman, (and I have slammed him over the years), I doubt that anybody was fed up with him. By all accounts, (and my own experience supports this), he is a really nice guy and very easy to work with. His greatest sin is sloth, and I certainly cannot call him out too much for that.

He was dragging things out while making demands on his credibility and reader patience though. At the time, the decline in sales would likely have been attributed to his writing. (Though, as Anderson said, the decline may well have been natural.)

And this is what we mean when we talk about writing over people’s heads. McCarthy’s iteration of the Matrix was very carefully treated not purely as a magical McGuffin that did whatever the plot needed to at a given point.....

...removing that aspect from the Autobots and devastating the morale of their own commanding circle (Prowl, Jazz, and Kup being completely unable to cope or re-rally their team with its loss....

...Costa’s stories in particular, like the Coda story with Starscream and the Matrix, or...

And...right here.

All of this is central to "All Hail Megatron" and (to a lesser degree) Costa's run. (Costa incorporated other ideas as well.) In order to get "All Hail Megatron", you need to get the high concept. And, in order to do that, you need to have points of reference outside of the franchise, and ideally outside of fiction.

Objects and locations can lend symbolic power, either for religious or historic reasons. Even after Germany re-united, they took their time before moving the capital back to Berlin. Taking and holding capitals is considered important. Similarly, the US has invested an irrational amount of money in infrastructure made to preserve a 200+ year old document in the event of a nation shattering catastrophe.

Losing one of those symbolically important things can be devastating and cause a leadership crisis (as the seen with the Autobots).

AHM is not the only idea based story in TF. But, it is one of the few where the (not terribly obscure) ideas are so important to being able to read and understand the story. (In theory, one could argue that it is an extreme case of a story not being self-contained, as it requires thinking about more than giant alien space robots...)

Unlike other TF stories with a high concept, ("Last Stand of the Wreckers", various points of Furman's Marvel run or parts of the UT), "All Hail Megatron" does not have much in the way of relief for those who just wanted big robots fighting or a story written by numbered cliche.

I somebody does not like high concept being necessary in a story, it is probably easier to harp on definitive mistakes that are common (in TF, comics or sci-fi as a whole). At that point, the out of place bridge in issue 8(?) or inconsistencies with previous comics become much more tempting targets even if those (legitimate) would normally be viewed more charitably. I have no idea why the inclination is to heap blame on the writer for mistakes that the artists and editors share at least some responsibility for.

So…you don’t see any symbolic value in stealing a fake version of a leadership artifact from a corrupt leader’s body, before the presence of that artifact could cause a peace-shattering catastrophe?

Man, a tired FBI agent would lose his mind if he read *that*! Can you imagine if his investigation led him to investigate my phone?


Dom
-and all of this just makes the "Mars Attacks" one-shot a more bitter pill.

[Sparky Prime]

Sorry, but I figured that after I pointed out that I already knew you were way too attached to the continuity of the thing even though it didn’t matter, that providing additional examples to convince me of that point *more* wasn’t something that would need to be done.

Sorry, I didn't realize you bringing up a specific example of a problem with the continuity meant that you wanted me to provide some additional examples of non-continuity related problems that had nothing to do with what you were talking about there. Like I said twice now, we've discussed it all before, at length, so I didn't think it was necessary to really get into it all over again. But if you really wanted some examples you should have just said so, rather than trying to use my response to your example of a continuity problem as some roundabout way of saying all my complaints about the story are continuity based when that isn't true at all.

So some examples of other problems with the story? Off the top of my head, how about when Ratchet announces that they have this procedure that could potentially save Optimus' life, but that it's extremely risky and more than likely, will kill him? And then a few pages later, Optimus is walking around again good as new? Ratchet must be a miracle worker. Isn't Bumblebee still walking around with a cane after all this time, despite Ratchet saying he's all better? Or how about Perceptor refusing to lend Ratchet a hand with said procedure? Just because he's a scary sniper now means he can't use his skills as a brilliant scientist to help out with fixing up their leader, where he was needed more than they needed a sniper for the time being?

OH! You got me, you totally nailed me! I’m no match for your superior quality debate skills, since we all know that a single artistic gaffe means the whole story is utter schwarbage!

Seriously, by that logic, ‘Code of Hero’ is the worst episode of Beast Wars ever.

Wow, you need to lighten up. That was meant to be just a joke.

Brought no idea-based storytelling to the table and dragged things out so badly that editorial itself got fed up with him?

I wouldn't say what Furman had been doing wasn't idea based. He was building up the story towards something big while exploring a lot of smaller things. But like you say, he did drag it out badly. Still, I wouldn't say IDW got fed up with him. After all, they stuck with him for 6 mini-series (Infiltration, Stormbringer, Escalation, Devastation, Revelation, Maximum Dinobots) and various Spotlight issues. If anything, the fans were getting fed up waiting for Furman to build his story seeing as sales were on the decline with each series.

Why is it so important that simple additions like “Megatron started the war because of what the Matrix represented” be explained in context?

Because that would be good story telling in an ongoing story line. Pretty sure I said that already...

Matching things up with a story that some hack wrote before you shouldn’t even be part of writing; if it was, we’d have had to spend the opening minutes of the rebooted Batman or Spider-Man movies showing some universe-resetting cataclysm that explains why everything’s different now. No one cares, and it does the audience a disservice to assume they’re too dumb to figure out that some tweaks are being made for the sake of the concepts in this new writer’s story.

Ugh... No, you're not taking into account what continuity even is. The rebooted Batman and The Amazing Spider-Man films are *new* continuities. They exist separately from the films that came before them. We're talking about something like Batman to Batman Returns, or Spider-Man to Spider-Man 2. Stories that take place in the *same* continuity where things that happen in one movie carries over to the next. The audience is going to care if they change something like the reason for Peter Parker becoming Spider-Man in the first place in a sequel that is supposed to just be continuing the story of the first film, regardless of where the new writer wants to take the story.

Why is it you can come up with your own fan-wank explanation for why Carol Ferris isn’t Queen of the Star Sapphires anymore, but you can’t be assed to use your head to paper over the inconsistencies in McCarthy’s run?

This again? First of all, I never said that was my own fan-wank explanation for it, I said I could see them explaining it as Carol just quit being Queen off panel. Secondly, that wasn't a direct affront to the established continuity as there could easily be an explanation in the story, even if we go with 'the reboot did it', unlike what McCarthy did with AHM.

When the crap someone put before you doesn’t lend itself completely to the ideas you want to put forward and the story you want to write, you are absolutely justified in discarding and drawing from that, and doubly so in a story that was intended as a soft reboot of the continuity and the franchise. What McCarthy did is no worse than someone else passing off a crappy Dr. Doom story as actually being a Doombot.

Nothing justifies just discarding something that's already been established just because it doesn't lead itself completely to your own ideas. At least, again, not with out explaining that change. And AHM was an extremely soft reboot, not a universe altering event where you can just pass off changes like that. The continuity was intended to remain unaltered here. Just as the Ongoing was another soft reboot and picked up after AHM, as was the launch of the RiD/MtMtE series picking up where the Ongoing left off. And those writers managed to do it with out completely ignoring the already established continuity. If anything, they found ways to expand upon what had already been established to work with their ideas instead of just ignoring it. And passing off Dr. Doom as a Doombot would be an in-context explanation. What McCarthy did was worst seeing as he just ignored stuff.

AHM in which it actually came into play.

No, no it didn't. Megatron took it and... that was it. The Autobots discuss it somewhat, but none of that mattered since they rally around Optimus with or without it. The Matrix itself never came into play during AHM.

And this is what we mean when we talk about writing over people’s heads. McCarthy’s iteration of the Matrix was very carefully treated not purely as a magical McGuffin that did whatever the plot needed to at a given point.

Disagreeing with your interpretation of a story doesn't equate to writing over someone's head. I can see where you're getting your interpretation from, but I don't agree with it. And there is such a thing as reading too much into a story. McCarthy really didn't go that much into the Matrix.

The concept that it ‘could’ have mystical power, but was never shown to until very late in the game, was the way McCarthy re-defined it. Megatron wanted the Matrix because he was under the impression it must have some great power, being the source of Optimus Prime’s leadership over the Autobots.

Again, it was called the Matrix of Leadership from the time it was introduced in the original Animated movie, that's hardly something McCarthy re-defined. And it is still an object of great mystical power, even if we didn't see it immediately as such. Even in the original animated movie, we really don't get a sense of it's mystical abilities until it turns Hot Rod into Rodimus at the end and uses it to destroy Unicron.

When he takes it, he is unable to unlock or find said mystical power, yet he still, somewhat unknowingly, attains its leadership attributes, removing that aspect from the Autobots and devastating the morale of their own commanding circle (Prowl, Jazz, and Kup being completely unable to cope or re-rally their team with its loss. Even without Prime, they would have conceivably been able to unite the Autobots for another go at the Decepticons had they had the Matrix).

What are you talking about? Megatron didn't attain any leadership attributes from the Matrix. The Autobots morale was so low because they had been decisively beaten. Their leader was on death's door step and they were exiled to a dead Cybertron, left to die from a cliche 'hordes of mindless bugs will finish them off, we don't need to see it' super villain mentality. With the exception of Prowl, Jazz, Kup and Ratchet, none of the Autobots even knew the Matrix was missing. Even if they did have the Matrix, it wouldn't have made any difference. They would have still been stuck on Cybertron with no way out of their situation if it hadn't been for Omega Supreme saving them.

The fact that we *don’t know* what the Matrix does in this continuity, yet still have it defined as a symbol of leadership, is very much a conception of McCarthy’s, and one that other writers would continue using (Costa’s stories in particular, like the Coda story with Starscream and the Matrix, or Hot Rod becoming ‘Rodimus Prime’ because of the Matrix, but in a symbolic way because of what he chooses to do with it, rather than a literal power-up).

How do we not know what the Matrix does in this continuity? We saw Optimus used it to purify Vector Sigma after Galvatron had infected it with the Heart of Darkness. That energy in turn revived Cybertron itself. In the aftermath, Optimus mentioned he could feel the wisdom he got from the Matrix slowly leaving him and the two crystal halves turned out to be some sort of star map, which is the premise behind MtMtE. And we've had several references to it having life-giving properties. It's just like the Matrix in any other continuity. The Matrix as a symbol of leadership is only but one quality that is also not unique here.

The difference is that McCarthy was allowed to complete his run, even have it expanded on due to their demand (the AHM Coda series being re-numbered to continue AHM’s numerical run). With Furman, they kicked him over to the Spotlight books and gave him just four issues to wrap up his BS because they were just sick of him.

Why is this becoming so much of a Furman vs. McCarthy thing for you? IDW didn't have to give Furman those Spotlight issues to wrap up some of his plot points, if they were so sick of him as you suggest. In fact, they didn't just give him those four issues, but he also wrote Maximum Dinobots at that time as well. As for the Coda issues, those were added as a means to fill in plot holes and wrap up the series to set up some things for the Ongoing, not because of demand.

This is all because I mis-spoke. I shouldn’t have said ‘Autobots’, but the Matrix was still emblematic of the corrupt Senate that Megatron was responding against when he started the war. Power bestowed upon a single ‘chosen one’ with no regard for the efforts of the lower classes or others who actually built the government the Senate was running? I’d say that’s what ‘the Matrix Represented’ and why Megatron started his uprising.

How is the Matrix emblematic of the Senate? No one was a 'chosen one' there. Even the Prime at the time didn't have the real Matrix with him. The corruption came from the lack of true leadership, not the leadership the real Matrix represents. Megatron's motivations for starting the war was against true corruption and lies.

So…you don’t see any symbolic value in stealing a fake version of a leadership artifact from a corrupt leader’s body, before the presence of that artifact could cause a peace-shattering catastrophe?

I didn't say that. I said Dom left out the context, which is pretty important seeing as it wasn't the real Matrix and was actually a bomb.

Here we have a situation where the ‘Matrix’ was set to ignite a war, to be the thing that spurred all the ‘Auto-Bots’ into action for a corrupt purpose; the bomb-Matrix was clearly representative of the corrupt leadership of the Senate. Orion Pax had to remove that corrupt element, and would later take the ‘real’ Matrix into him, to become the true leader of the Autobots, and unite them in action for a more altruistic goal, representing the Autobots’ shift to more ‘pure’ leadership. It absolutely had everything to do with how the Matrix has been defined in IDW since McCarthy brought it in.

I'll admit, that's some pretty sound reasoning in looking at a figurative interpretation of those stories by Roberts and Dille, but that's got nothing to do with what McCarthy brought into it. And by that logic the war should have come to an end with the real Matrix discovered by Orion Pax and the corrupt element of the Senate removed by Starscream.

[Onslaught Six]

Unlike other TF stories with a high concept, ("Last Stand of the Wreckers", various points of Furman's Marvel run or parts of the UT), "All Hail Megatron" does not have much in the way of relief for those who just wanted big robots fighting or a story written by numbered cliche.

I disagree with this! It's got plenty of Decepticons hacking up civilians, and Autobots being all run-down and depressed, and then coming back around to beat the crap out of some 'Cons in a big showdown. Megatron fights Devastator! High concept aside, that's awesome.

I mean, for real, if you don't get excited when you hear the words, "Megatron fights Devastator," you have no business reading Transformers.

So how about when Ratchet announces that they have this procedure that could potentially save Optimus' life, but that it's extremely risky and more than likely will kill him? And then a few pages later, Optimus is walking around again good as new? Ratchet must be a miracle worker.

I love All Hail Megatron and I hate this. For real. (I never said AHM was perfect.)

Isn't Bumblebee still walking around with a cane after all this time, despite Ratchet saying he's all better?

I seem to remember this being handwaved away that Bumblebee was continuing to fake it, because it made him more of a threat--someone might try to assassinate him, for example, thinking he was feeble and messed up, and then he busts out the moves. Kind of like Yoda in the prequels.

Or how about Perceptor refusing to lend Ratchet a hand with said procedure? Just because he's a scary sniper now means he can't help out with some technical expertise?

You know, given how long it's been since this argument, it gave me time to get a fresh perspective on it, and I think I finally got it! I know how to dispel this argument!

Let's picture Perceptor as if he was a human for a minute. He's a meek, feeble dude with glasses. He works as a scientist and doesn't really do combat stuff. People don't think of him as someone dangerous. Then he gets hacked in half and is given badass cyborg limbs with guns in them. He wants to be taken seriously as a warrior. He wants everyone to know he's different, so he stops doing things that might remind people of the old Perceptor.

Like a teenager who might stop reading comic books or playing with toys because it's seen as childish among his peers, Perceptor stops acting as a scientist because he's no longer that kind of guy.

I'd also like to point out two things:

1) Pre-AHM, is Perceptor actually shown having any medical skills? Just because someone is a scientist doesn't qualify them to be a doctor. I know that to TFs they're probably functionally identical, but the distinction is there. And we know that other continuities (G1 cartoon, for example) show Perceptor as a medic...but does IDW? It could very well be that Perceptor was 'never' capable of helping to repair Optimus Prime, the same way Wheeljack isn't. (Nobody ever complains that Wheeljack isn't helping to repair Optimus. Nobody complains that Roadbuster isn't, either.)

2) Does anyone bring up the fact that Perceptor isn't helping? It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think it does. He's just...not helping, the same way Blurr or Prowl or Jazz isn't helping. Does anyone actually say "Man, Perceptor could totally help, if only he wasn't a sniper now!"

How do we not know what the Matrix does in this continuity? We saw Optimus used it to purify Vector Sigma after Galvatron had infected it with the Heart of Darkness.

...published two years after AHM. McCarthy couldn't have known that Optimus Prime would do that with it, or that it'd be a map, or any of that. (Unless someone in editorial told him.)

I didn't say that. I said Dom left out the context, which is pretty important seeing as it wasn't the real Matrix.

The public doesn't know it's not the real Matrix. That MTMTE story is the equivalent of a heist film where the protagonists switch out the Rare Big-Ass Diamond for a fake one. The people going to the museum wouldn't know it's a fake, since it looks exactly the same as the real one.

[Sparky Prime]

I seem to remember this being handwaved away that Bumblebee was continuing to fake it, because it made him more of a threat--someone might try to assassinate him, for example, thinking he was feeble and messed up, and then he busts out the moves. Kind of like Yoda in the prequels.

Last I saw mention of it, Ratchet was saying Bumblebee didn't need the cane any more and the pain he still felt from the injury was all in his head.

You know, given how long it's been since this argument, it gave me time to get a fresh perspective on it, and I think I finally got it! I know how to dispel this argument!

Let's picture Perceptor as if he was a human for a minute. He's a meek, feeble dude with glasses. He works as a scientist and doesn't really do combat stuff. People don't think of him as someone dangerous. Then he gets hacked in half and is given badass cyborg limbs with guns in them. He wants to be taken seriously as a warrior. He wants everyone to know he's different, so he stops doing things that might remind people of the old Perceptor.

It is true the reason Perceptor gives for turning himself into a sniper was because he'd felt like he'd been helpless during a battle and wanted to repay Drift for saving him. But the Autobots had plenty of troops available in fortifying their position while they just waited for the Swarm to attack. They knew they wouldn't attack for quite some time having just destroyed the only (other) bridge to their location. His skills would have better utilized helping fix up Optimus in the meantime. Perceptor didn't stop being a logical thinker just because he became a sniper and he would know they could use his skills as a medic more than a sniper with the condition they all knew Optimus was in.

Like a teenager who might stop reading comic books or playing with toys because it's seen as childish among his peers, Perceptor stops acting as a scientist because he's no longer that kind of guy.

I doubt any of his peers thought of him as childish. After all, he was responsible for developing various new technologies and weapons for the Autobot cause. And Perceptor was the reason behind Kup being back in action, having developed a new body for him using Pretender technology. He was a real asset in his role as a scientist.

I'd also like to point out two things:

1) Pre-AHM, is Perceptor actually shown having any medical skills? Just because someone is a scientist doesn't qualify them to be a doctor. I know that to TFs they're probably functionally identical, but the distinction is there. And we know that other continuities (G1 cartoon, for example) show Perceptor as a medic...but does IDW? It could very well be that Perceptor was 'never' capable of helping to repair Optimus Prime, the same way Wheeljack isn't. (Nobody ever complains that Wheeljack isn't helping to repair Optimus. Nobody complains that Roadbuster isn't, either.)

Yes, we've seen Perceptor has medical skills. Like I pointed out above, he was responsible for building a new body for Kup. And he modified parts of his own body to make himself into a sniper.

2) Does anyone bring up the fact that Perceptor isn't helping? It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think it does. He's just...not helping, the same way Blurr or Prowl or Jazz isn't helping. Does anyone actually say "Man, Perceptor could totally help, if only he wasn't a sniper now!"

They do. In issue #9, Ratchet says they could use the old Perceptor to help him and Wheeljack with Optimus, not another clown with a gun.

...published two years after AHM. McCarthy couldn't have known that Optimus Prime would do that with it, or that it'd be a map, or any of that. (Unless someone in editorial told him.)

BWprowl said we didn't know "what the Matrix does in this continuity", so that would include everything in IDW's continuity, not just up to what McCarthy wrote. And we have seen that it is, in fact, more than just a symbol of leadership in this continuity.

The public doesn't know it's not the real Matrix. That MTMTE story is the equivalent of a heist film where the protagonists switch out the Rare Big-Ass Diamond for a fake one. The people going to the museum wouldn't know it's a fake, since it looks exactly the same as the real one.

I know the public doesn't know. That doesn't make it any less important for *us* to know it was a fake Matrix and that apparently several of the Prime's before Optimus were not true Primes.