David Willis writes about BW

[BWprowl]

So first you criticize Furman for having the shows characters in it at all, comparing it to your own childhood stories mixing/replacing non-show characters with show characters, but then you say you'd be "more okay" with it if the show characters had more involvement with the comic story? That is one of the most arbitrary arguments I have ever seen.

It's more of an 'All or Nothing' argument. The problem is the halfway method they used that uses a bunch of storytelling effort to get the show guys in there at all, and then doesn't let them do anything. Either have them in there doing stuff or don't bother with the trouble of putting them in at all.

If the main characters need to show up, have the comic-only guys viewing them from a distance....and maybe deciding that they want nothing to do with the main characters. Then towards the end of seaon 3, the comic characters split and become new Maximals and Predacons....and hey....no time-wank.

Wasn't that pretty much the plot of that short BW story Dreamwave did way back?

[Sparky Prime]

It's more of an 'All or Nothing' argument. The problem is the halfway method they used that uses a bunch of storytelling effort to get the show guys in there at all, and then doesn't let them do anything. Either have them in there doing stuff or don't bother with the trouble of putting them in at all.

Why does it have to be 'All or Nothing'? Seriously, I don't see any problems with how they set it up. How exactly did they use "a bunch of storytelling effort" to bring in the show characters? Magmatron rather easily summed up the premise in only a few sentences. Again, the point of the comic was to tell a new storyline using a couple plot threads left over from the show. It makes sense to have the show characters get some cameos in this situation as their story is used as a starting point for the comic, but there is no reason for this story to go all out in using those characters.

If the main characters need to show up, have the comic-only guys viewing them from a distance....and maybe deciding that they want nothing to do with the main characters. Then towards the end of seaon 3, the comic characters split and become new Maximals and Predacons....and hey....no time-wank.

Wasn't that pretty much the plot of that short BW story Dreamwave did way back?

I guess you could kinda say that it was... Optimus Minor did tell Rattrap something like they were Maximals once but now have a purpose and don't wish to fight. But with out the "time-wank" it begs to question how they were able to hide their energy signatures from the other Maximals/Predacons that whole time. Dreamwave's BW miniseries was supposed to follow up on that short story. It appears many ideas of that story were still used for the basis of "The Gathering" by the way.

[andersonh1]

Why does it have to be 'All or Nothing'?

That's what I keep wondering. I still can't figure out why cameos from the show characters are so offensive.

Seriously, I don't see any problems with how they set it up. How exactly did they use "a bunch of storytelling effort" to bring in the show characters? Magmatron rather easily summed up the premise in only a few sentences. Again, the point of the comic was to tell a new storyline using a couple plot threads left over from the show. It makes sense to have the show characters get some cameos in this situation as their story is used as a starting point for the comic, but there is no reason for this story to go all out in using those characters.

Exactly. It's no more offensive than Optimus Prime's cameo in "The Agenda part 3". I kept wishing he would wake up and do something more, but I was hardly offended that he was in the episode. More like delighted to see him and the other G1 characters.

If the main characters need to show up, have the comic-only guys viewing them from a distance....and maybe deciding that they want nothing to do with the main characters. Then towards the end of seaon 3, the comic characters split and become new Maximals and Predacons....and hey....no time-wank.

Wasn't that pretty much the plot of that short BW story Dreamwave did way back?

I guess you could kinda say that it was... Optimus Minor did tell Rattrap something like they were Maximals once but now have a purpose and don't wish to fight. But with out the "time-wank" it begs to question how they were able to hide their energy signatures from the other Maximals/Predacons that whole time. Dreamwave's BW miniseries was supposed to follow up on that short story. It appears many ideas of that story were still used for the basis of "The Gathering" by the way.

I've often wondered how close IDW's Beast Wars mini-series was to what Dreamwave had planned.

[Onslaught Six]

Why does it have to be 'All or Nothing'?

That's what I keep wondering. I still can't figure out why cameos from the show characters are so offensive.

They didn't 'do anything.'

On the same side of it, let's say they did the opposite. What if they'd done a series that focused on "inbetween" episodes of BW with the show characters, but then shoehorned this thing in where there were all these non-show characters off in the background? So Rattrap and Rhinox are off doing stuff and then you see Polar Claw in the background for two panels!

That'd be just as retarded because now Polar Claw isn't doing anything. They went through all this crap--setting up a whole storyline--for Polar Claw to do nothing.

The G1 character argument doesn't hold up because the entire series wasn't based around that premise. You claim they were trying to get to Prehistoric Earth the entire time, but really it's only ever stated they're trying to get to Earth period. And the first season is done ambiguously enough that one can be unsure of exactly 'where' Bob 'n' Larry were going to go--they could have just as easily made it a different planet, and Japanese BW even *was* leaning towards that by referring to it as Energoa. (Of course, the BWII guys ended up on present Earth and they called it Planet Gaia.)

The point is that the plot was concocted to feature around the show characters, who ended up contributing *nothing* to the plot. Give Magmatron a different motivation, throw them on another planet, and you have the exact same story.

I hate this book, it sucks and I'm done talking about it.

[andersonh1]

Why does it have to be 'All or Nothing'?

That's what I keep wondering. I still can't figure out why cameos from the show characters are so offensive.

They didn't 'do anything.'

Neither did Optimus Prime.

On the same side of it, let's say they did the opposite. What if they'd done a series that focused on "inbetween" episodes of BW with the show characters, but then shoehorned this thing in where there were all these non-show characters off in the background? So Rattrap and Rhinox are off doing stuff and then you see Polar Claw in the background for two panels!

That'd be just as retarded because now Polar Claw isn't doing anything. They went through all this crap--setting up a whole storyline--for Polar Claw to do nothing.

Sounds like the ongoing series. The plot is focused on Hot Rod, Prime, Bumblebee and a few other main characters, while the majority of the cast get what are essentially cameos. They might get a line or two, but otherwise contribute nothing to the plot. And I can't say that really bothers me. I'd like to see them do more, but at the same time at least the existence of the characters is acknowledged. I'd rather see that than see them ignored entirely.

The G1 character argument doesn't hold up because the entire series wasn't based around that premise.

Not at first, no. Things changed as the series progressed. The third season was very much based around that premise, and the second certainly built up to it.

You claim they were trying to get to Prehistoric Earth the entire time, but really it's only ever stated they're trying to get to Earth period. And the first season is done ambiguously enough that one can be unsure of exactly 'where' Bob 'n' Larry were going to go--they could have just as easily made it a different planet,

As far as I know, the decision to set the series on Earth was only made by the writers at the end of the first season. But the plot developments in the second season establish that Megatron knew exactly where and when he was, and that he deliberately chose to go to prehistoric Earth. The original Megatron's directive on the golden disk establishes that. When it comes to the fictional world of BW, Megatron was always going to Earth. In the real world of writing and story planning, that plot point was only decided late in the day.

The point is that the plot was concocted to feature around the show characters, who ended up contributing *nothing* to the plot. Give Magmatron a different motivation, throw them on another planet, and you have the exact same story.

You change Magmatron's motivation and the planet, and things are completely different. And far less interesting. We've seen the breakaway group of Predacons who went looking for Energon and wanted to restart the war and conquer Cybertron. We've seen Maximals and Predacons fighting each other on a primitive planet. We've seen them take on beast modes because of the high Energon levels. Do we really want to read that story all over again, with Magmatron leading the Predacons instead of Megatron?

I hate this book, it sucks and I'm done talking about it.

I said I was done, but here I am, still arguing about it. Go figure.

[Shockwave]

And then he went and announced that he was going to be writing an official Fan Club comic strip about Shattered Glass Ravage. Fuck me.

That just happened this month and it makes me hate Willis that much more. I read it, and I can't unread it.

[Shockwave]

The thing that annoyed me most about the BW comic is that the only reason more characters weren't in the show was because of budget reasons associated with animating a character. It costed a lot to do that so the cast was limited as a result. We didn't have that limitation with comics so I see that IDW had an opportunity to give us a BW universe that was more expansive and included more characters, but instead they tried and failed epically to essentially retcon the tv show. And the timehift thing bugs the hell out of me when we see shadowy timeshifty Primal and co standing in the same place as every non show character ever having a massive battle, tearing up the terrain and yet Primal and co don't notice that a freakin' mountain just exploded!

[Sparky Prime]

They didn't 'do anything.'

Because they were *not* the feature characters of the comic. The comic characters were.

The G1 character argument doesn't hold up because the entire series wasn't based around that premise.

So what if the entire series isn't based around that premise? As andersonh1 already said, the 3rd season is certainly based around it, with the 2nd season building up to it. That's really the only point that matters to that argument since those G1 characters are there in the show at some point, yet really don't contribute anything to the story themselves. "The Gathering" just did it in reverse, starting with having the show characters present, but then had them leave at the start of "The Ascending".

You claim they were trying to get to Prehistoric Earth the entire time, but really it's only ever stated they're trying to get to Earth period. And the first season is done ambiguously enough that one can be unsure of exactly 'where' Bob 'n' Larry were going to go--they could have just as easily made it a different planet, and Japanese BW even *was* leaning towards that by referring to it as Energoa. (Of course, the BWII guys ended up on present Earth and they called it Planet Gaia.)

You need to pay more attention to the 1st season, they weren't as ambiguous as you seem to think. They give various clues to the audience that they are indeed on pre-historic Earth the entire time. Such as: "Beast Wars" - Rhinox makes it a point to mention the Transwarp Drive can travel through space *and* time, setting up that they time traveled into the past. The Predacons confirm the intended destination was Earth, although are confused by a few inconsistencies from what they expected. And of course we see many types of *Earth animals* and a structure resembling Stonehenge. "Fallen Comrades" - a map Terrorsaur is watching/tracking Tigatron's falling stasis pod clearly shows Earth's continents in somewhat of a pre-modern day state of continental drift. Earth also seems to be coming out of the last big ice age given the amount of ice shown on the Northern Hemisphere. "The Trigger" - Rhinox is doing some tidal research and finds one of the moons lacks the mass it should, suggesting it's an artificial moon, although it isn't revealed until 9 or 10 episodes later that it's actually the Vok's Planet Buster in disguise.

The point is that the plot was concocted to feature around the show characters, who ended up contributing *nothing* to the plot. Give Magmatron a different motivation, throw them on another planet, and you have the exact same story.

Again, the point of the comic wasn't for it to be featured around the shows characters. If it was, then they would have been in the forefront of the story but obviously they weren't as they were kept to a background role. The point was to follow a couple plot threads the show had established in order to start a *new* storyline following the *comic characters*.
And although andersonh1 already said it (again)... You *cannot* change Magmatron's motivation and the planet with out making it a *completely* different story.

[Onslaught Six]

Why does it have to be 'All or Nothing'?

That's what I keep wondering. I still can't figure out why cameos from the show characters are so offensive.

They didn't 'do anything.'

Neither did Optimus Prime.

Optimus Prime died. Jesus, even in stories where that guy barely shows up, he has to sacrifice himself. (And then...he got better.)

And besiding that, Prime wasn't the focus of the storyline like the Quest For Megatron was. Magmatron's whole thing revolved around killing Megs. Megs wasn't even sure this was the right place until, according to you guys, early S2.

Sounds like the ongoing series. The plot is focused on Hot Rod, Prime, Bumblebee and a few other main characters, while the majority of the cast get what are essentially cameos. They might get a line or two, but otherwise contribute nothing to the plot. And I can't say that really bothers me. I'd like to see them do more, but at the same time at least the existence of the characters is acknowledged. I'd rather see that than see them ignored entirely.

That's an entirely different situation, though, because it's not like Rodimus shows up out of nowhere--Rodimus was already there since AHM.

Not at first, no. Things changed as the series progressed. The third season was very much based around that premise, and the second certainly built up to it.

The G1 characters being there is a natural progression, though--it only makes sense. First we find out they've been flung through time and might not even be on the right plane, then we find out it's actually Earth--and if it's Earth then that means those guys who crashed here in the past are probably around it somewhere. Megs only realizes it's there when he starts examining the Golden Disk.

You change Magmatron's motivation and the planet, and things are completely different. And far less interesting. We've seen the breakaway group of Predacons who went looking for Energon and wanted to restart the war and conquer Cybertron. We've seen Maximals and Predacons fighting each other on a primitive planet. We've seen them take on beast modes because of the high Energon levels. Do we really want to read that story all over again, with Magmatron leading the Predacons instead of Megatron?

Well, the Gathering fucked it up royally, but it *would* be different, because Magmatron and Big Convoy have an entirely different dynamic going on. Magmatron (Now BWII Galvy as the sourcebooks claim) was the guy who respected his troops and forgave their failures and had honour and all that shit--if anything, he's Dinobot if Dinobot were leading the Preds. Mags was also the current Emperor of Destruction meaning he *wasn't* just the leader of some ragtag offshoot group like Megatron's were--Megatron was a two-bit criminal Megatron fanboy who steals his name and some flashy transwarp equipment in hopes of achieving greatness. Magmatron was already great.

I hate this book, it sucks and I'm done talking about it.

I said I was done, but here I am, still arguing about it. Go figure.

And now so am I! God dammit!

[Sparky Prime]

Optimus Prime died. Jesus, even in stories where that guy barely shows up, he has to sacrifice himself. (And then...he got better.)

Except he didn't die, the Maximals prevented that. And the damage was the result of Megatron doing something to him, not something Prime did himself.

And besiding that, Prime wasn't the focus of the storyline like the Quest For Megatron was. Magmatron's whole thing revolved around killing Megs. Megs wasn't even sure this was the right place until, according to you guys, early S2.

No. Magmatron's whole plan revolved around capturing the stasis pods, *despite* the Tripredacus Council sending him to capture Megatron. In other words, Magmatron was disobeying orders and was just going to leave Megatron alone. It wasn't until Razorbeast ruined his plan and avoided capture that Magmatron decided he had to go capture Megatron.

The G1 characters being there is a natural progression, though--it only makes sense. First we find out they've been flung through time and might not even be on the right plane, then we find out it's actually Earth--and if it's Earth then that means those guys who crashed here in the past are probably around it somewhere. Megs only realizes it's there when he starts examining the Golden Disk.

You make it sounds like Megatron didn't know the Ark would be there until after the fact, like it was all some happy coincidence for they ended up in the past where the Ark would be. They weren't "flung through time", they specifically traveled to that point in history. When they thought they were on the wrong planet, Megatron had a "oh well, plan B" type attitude. So then, what do you think "plan A" was, hrm? Megatron knew what was on the Golden Disk before they left Cybertron, and about G1 Megatron's message with instructions to change history if he failed to defeat the Autobots.