David Willis writes about BW

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"
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Dominic
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David Willis writes about BW

Post by Dominic »

The last time I started a thread about BW, we all regretted it, and I learned to hate a large part of the fandom.

Here is what David Willis has to say about "Beast Wars".

As many of you know, I am not a fan of Willis. But, I can look at him, and "Beast Wars" objectively.

Point by point:

I agree with far more of his recent posting than I want to. Hell, it is even fair to say that he is, overall, right. But, there are a few points where he is off.

Its incredible articulation, for one. Its willingness to resurrect older characters if needed.
Willis is right when he argues that the fact TF was moribund allowed BW to innovate. But, bringing in old characters is really not innovation. And, the trend in using older characters now more or less kills innovation. And, while the beast era itself may have been a time of great creativity, the franchise got *more* formulaic after the beast years than it had been even during G1. There is still much to enjoy about the modern hobby. But, it has a definite tendency to be backward looking.

And, it should also be noted that little, if anything, good has come of "Beast Wars". G1 has been rebooted and retooled multiple times, with mixed results. Attempts to revive "Beast Wars" have met with almost universal scorn. "Beast Wars" was a product of a moment. G1 *is* a legacy at this point.

These things were made possible by the incredible caliber of writers assembled by Forward and DiTillio. Their ranks included Len Wein (creator of Wolverine, Storm, and Colossus), Christy Marx (Babylon 5), Jules Dennis (Real Ghostbusters and Batman: The Animated Series), D.C. Fontana (so much Star Trek), and, yes, Simon Furman (everything Transformers ever).
Willis is giving way more credit to the cartoon than it warrants. End of story.

BW was better than any TF cartoon before or since. That is fair. But, the bar for this is *very* low. BW's writing was comparable to a number of other 90s cartoons. "Mighty Max", (a favorite at the local comic shop of my youth), had an over-arching plot. "Exo-Squad" did as well. BW had a huge advantage in terms of looking pretty, and the only other cartoon that was even close to that pretty was "Reboot", which lacked any writing to speak of.

To use the terms I would have in HS, (shortly before BW first aired in '96), "Beast Wars" was a fabulously gorgeous girl with a middling intellect and "Reboot" was slighly prettier while being dumb as a sack of crap. If one was really looking for intellect though, there were ample Plain-Janes.

To put it in a more mature light, about 5 years ago, a friend of mine (rightly) called me out for my anemic tastes in literature. He (correctly) argued that so much of what I read and watched was crap, that I was likely to be dazzled by even the slightlest show of intelligence. I have since looked back over much of what once dazzled me, and will concede he was right. "Beast Wars" is a good, (though hardly the most extreme), example of this. Transfans tend to be incredibly insular, if not by franchise than by genre. (I love the guys who argue that they have varied tastes because the like "Star Trek" along with "Transformers".) And, lets face it, the soft sci-fi genre is hardly known for consistently high quality.

And, TF (even now) tends towards the lower end of a pretty low genre. Yes, there are stand-out stories and writers who push themselves. But, as "Exodus" shows, it also relies hugely on brand recognition, even when it should be trying to expand into new areas.

The writers Willis lists are not as impressive as they first seem if one steps back and looks elsewhere in the genre. Most of them are simply journeymen who lucked onto good projects. Simon Furman is probably the most creative of them, and he relies on the good-old-boy network as much, if not more than, any of them. (And, I would be willing to bet that a bit of research would make the case for Fontana having a more impressive body of work.)

The very idea of the spark, the tangible “soul” of a Transformer, has existed in every single incarnation of Transformers since, including the live-action movie, as has the concept of the Matrix/AllSpark as the Transformers afterlife.
The term "Spark" was new to "Beast War", but the concept goes back to G1.

And, either way, BW is also to blame for the sheer amount of magical gibberywank that pervades the hobby now. (And, yes, I will admit, larger social trends are also to blame here. But, the Spark idea gave the magical thinking a hook.)


It pulled me back into Transformers after having left it, and is the biggest reason this very webcomic about toy collecting exists.
I just will leave it to some one else to make the snide remark this quote demands. :)

Characters that have taught me valuable things.
The hell? Really?

I have heard this sort of thing before, about TF and other franchises. *The characters*, not the writers or the ideas articulated using the characters, teach us valuable lessons.


No, uh, just no.

The cartoon ended ~10 years ago. I am pretty sure there have been more valuable lessons to learn since then.


Dom
-just putting things in perspective.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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Now, I'm an unrepentant Beast Wars fanboy, as we all know, and while I've been getting pretty sick of Willis recently, I actually agreed with most of what he had to say. Hell, a lot of it (especially regarding the toys and innovation and so forth) is almost exactly what I've been saying about BW, and Transformers in general, for years. While TF cartoons have generally been sub-par, cartoons in the 90's have a deserved reputation for being generally good, and BW was (in my opinion) in the higher tier of that crop. I especially like the way the writing matured over the seasons; there are very few instances in season 2 of the show talking down to its audience.

I definitely agree about BW and innovation, and that continued with BM, which kept the series evolving. This is precisely why I was dismayed (and continue to be so to this day, to a degree) when Hasbro scrapped Transtech to bring over RiD, then Armada. Suddenly we were back to Autobots and Decepticons turning into regular vehicles fighting each other on modern-day Earth. Didn't we already watch this back in 1984?

I've been meaning to write a little essay myself actually, so I'll save thoughts like that for later. For now, I'll just admit that I agreed almost whole-heartedly with what David Willis had to say about Beast Wars. He actually won back some of my respect.

And then he went and announced that he was going to be writing an official Fan Club comic strip about Shattered Glass Ravage. Fuck me.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

Post by Sparky Prime »

Although I can't say I always agree with Willis either, I wouldn't say he's really wrong on these points Dom....
Dominic wrote:And, it should also be noted that little, if anything, good has come of "Beast Wars".
....You're kidding right? The Transformers brand had become extremely stale by the early 90's. It was the Beast Wars franchise that was responsible for reinvigorating Transformers. To say "little, if anything, good" came of Beast Wars is a gross injustice, given Transformers probably wouldn't be enjoying its modern day success with out it. Furthermore, Beast Wars set the bar for many fans in terms of what they want out of Transformers. And this is not a low set bar by any means. It's success continues to be rated against even newest of TF lines and ever other cartoons in some cases. That says something about how good Beast Wars is right there.
G1 has been rebooted and retooled multiple times, with mixed results. Attempts to revive "Beast Wars" have met with almost universal scorn. "Beast Wars" was a product of a moment. G1 *is* a legacy at this point.
I don't agree with your interpretation here. As I said above, Beast Wars set the bar for many fans. It doesn't come as a surprise that attempts to revisit Beast Wars is met by scorn when said attempts so far have really been sub-par to the original. Like BWprowl said, several 90's cartoons have a reputation for being generally good and BW certainly qualifies as one of them. Beast Wars is more than a product of a moment as it has managed to transcend that moment. G1, in a way I'd call a legacy, but not because it has been rebooted/retooled multiple times, rather, it simply came first. So of course when it comes to rebooting things, it's going to go back to G1.
And, either way, BW is also to blame for the sheer amount of magical gibberywank that pervades the hobby now.
I'd argue Beast Machines is more to blame for the magical gibberywank aspects of Sparks. BW really didn't go into it much.
I have heard this sort of thing before, about TF and other franchises. *The characters*, not the writers or the ideas articulated using the characters, teach us valuable lessons.

No, uh, just no.

The cartoon ended ~10 years ago. I am pretty sure there have been more valuable lessons to learn since then.
Dom, again, just because you don't have much credence for characters doesn't mean the same is true for everyone. I'd think most people get something from the characters actually. I also don't see were your comment about learning more valuable lessons since then comes from. That really has nothing to do with the point of what Willis is saying there, which is simply the fact there are valuable lessons to be gotten from BW.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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Dominic wrote: But, bringing in old characters is really not innovation. And, the trend in using older characters now more or less kills innovation.
I think you have to clarify this statement. When it comes to the actual toys and how they are engineered, I would argue that the line continues to innovate and progress. However when it comes to characters, we do seem to get a lot of rehashing. Not that movie Ironhide bears all that much resemblance to G1 Ironhide, to pick one example.

And if it's true that the fact that Transformers had grown really stagnant was what both forced and allowed the major change into Beast Wars, would that possibly mean that as long as the line is successful that we shouldn't expect another burst of creativity? I think it might. Hasbro is going to stick with what sells.

Though just to argue with my own point, Animated could be legitimately considered an attempt to do something new with the line.
And, while the beast era itself may have been a time of great creativity, the franchise got *more* formulaic after the beast years than it had been even during G1. There is still much to enjoy about the modern hobby. But, it has a definite tendency to be backward looking.
In a franchise with as much history as Transformers, I'm not sure that's avoidable. But we still got a large number of new characters in Cybertron, just to pick one recent example.
And, it should also be noted that little, if anything, good has come of "Beast Wars". G1 has been rebooted and retooled multiple times, with mixed results. Attempts to revive "Beast Wars" have met with almost universal scorn.
That's because the show is still held in such high regard by a majority of fans. I enjoy the old G1 cartoon, but let's face it: it wasn't hard to improve upon the writing and characterization. With Beast Wars, I think the view is largely that they got it right the first time around and there's no need to reboot it.
I have heard this sort of thing before, about TF and other franchises. *The characters*, not the writers or the ideas articulated using the characters, teach us valuable lessons.


No, uh, just no.

The cartoon ended ~10 years ago. I am pretty sure there have been more valuable lessons to learn since then.
It's a work of fiction. A fantasy series based on a toyline. I don't see that there's any life lessons to be taken from it. It's pure escapism and entertainment, nothing more. If Willis is learning lessons from Beast Wars, I think he needs to find another source of inspiration.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

Post by Dominic »

Willis posted the original article at www.shortpacked.com. The page was down when I went to check it this morning.

(Sorry for not posting it yesterday. I thought I did. And, either way, I just figured most people here knew where Willis posts his writing.)

That said, did anyone else catch him saying that Tigatron and Snowstalker were lovers?

Uh.....Why is buying into the furrie-theory? Why? (This is yet another reason my regard for BW has dropped.)

This is precisely why I was dismayed (and continue to be so to this day, to a degree) when Hasbro scrapped Transtech to bring over RiD, then Armada.
Blame the fans. Toy-hacks were nearly impossible to ignore around '01.

It was the Beast Wars franchise that was responsible for reinvigorating Transformers. To say "little, if anything, good" came of Beast Wars is a gross injustice, given Transformers probably wouldn't be enjoying its modern day success with out it.
To clarify, I meant "since '01 or so".

Sparky, you are the only person I talk to regularly, (online or in real-time), who liked the IDW stuff. I know a few others who liked "Universe" initially, and have since moved past it.

BW most certainly *did* revive the franchise. I am not disputing that. I would not have my cherished "Universe" Sideswipe and Sunstreaker figures, (or the half a dozen custom figures I made), if not for Optimus Primal and Dinobot.

But, attempts to revive BW tend to go badly. G1 has proven more resilient, and I am willing to be this has less to do with it being "first" than we give it credit for. Plenty of other toy-lines were first...and last.
this is not a low set bar by any means.
I was saying that BW, (the toys and especially the cartoon), raised a low bar to middling. Transfans were just dazzled by the the high side of mediocrity, but it was relatively (when compared to much of G1) high.

I'd argue Beast Machines is more to blame for the magical gibberywank aspects of Sparks. BW really didn't go into it much.
Fair point. But, "spark induced changes" as well as power-gaming (though not necessarily mystical in nature) in terms of mode scanning came out of "Beast Wars".

I think you have to clarify this statement. When it comes to the actual toys and how they are engineered, I would argue that the line continues to innovate and progress. However when it comes to characters, we do seem to get a lot of rehashing. Not that movie Ironhide bears all that much resemblance to G1 Ironhide, to pick one example.
I did specify old characters in my original post. The toys will be more advanced simply due to better technology being available. The character rehashing really started during the "Unicron Trilogy", even if we discount older names being re-used on new characters (such as Red Alert).
It's a work of fiction. A fantasy series based on a toyline. I don't see that there's any life lessons to be taken from it. It's pure escapism and entertainment, nothing more. If Willis is learning lessons from Beast Wars, I think he needs to find another source of inspiration.
I will not go that far, as it essentially says that a cartoon cannot be written with any depth or intelligence.

What irked me about Willis statement is that he was crediting the *characters* as educational, rather than the writers.


As much as it viscerally pains me to write this......"Beast Wars" had some good episodes.

There. I. Said. It.

Not everything in BW sucks.

Damn. I. Need. A. Shower. Now.


Call of the Wild: Solid treatment of the mind/body problem. And, it provides some official insights into TF physiology without going to the extreme of saying "Triple Changers are lunatics and idiots". It does make sense that if one's body can have two or more meaninfully different forms, then there will be different programming sets to run each form.

Law of the Jungle: Wow, and intelligent and moral case for war. (Of course, one could also get the same insights from looking at history. And, the real world also presents a case against Maximal/Autobot style intervention.


Dom
-but, there is also...."The Low Road" or "Coming of the Fuzors".
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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Dominic wrote:
It's a work of fiction. A fantasy series based on a toyline. I don't see that there's any life lessons to be taken from it. It's pure escapism and entertainment, nothing more. If Willis is learning lessons from Beast Wars, I think he needs to find another source of inspiration.
I will not go that far, as it essentially says that a cartoon cannot be written with any depth or intelligence.
Not at all, and I don't see how the two would be mutually exclusive. Intelligent writing makes the escapism more enjoyable. But I would say that the writing should reflect and be informed by reality rather than inspiring it. But then I don't look to any fiction for inspiration or life lessons. There's plenty of real-life examples out there to draw those from.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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Dominic wrote:I was saying that BW, (the toys and especially the cartoon), raised a low bar to middling. Transfans were just dazzled by the the high side of mediocrity, but it was relatively (when compared to much of G1) high.
For the record, I didn't really watch G1 (er, G2) as a kid, so I wasn't comparing it to BW. Hell, I didn't see G1 until *last year*. I always compared BW to the other cartoons of its era that I watched. And BW really impressed me in that context. I really think I'm just a sucker for Bob 'n' Larry's writing. I loved that episode of 'Animated'.
Dom
-but, there is also...."The Low Road" or "Coming of the Fuzors".
The title (and various interviews on the subject) of 'The Low Road' shows that they knew exactly what they were doing with that one, and it's fun in that context. And screw you, 'Coming of the Fuzors' was awesome! Quickstrike's origin in the first part is one reason I'm still so fascinated with the character to this day.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

Post by Dominic »

"The Low Road" is still pretty bad though. Yeah, mission accomplished, but....., (or, should I say "butt with quivering sphincter..."?)

"Coming of the Fuzors" was awful. It epitomized the "cartoon as toy commercial" aspect of the brand. What was so good about Quickstrike's origin, that he just decided to be a Predacon? I will grant you that it was better than "Equal Measures", but that is a very low bar.
Not at all, and I don't see how the two would be mutually exclusive. Intelligent writing makes the escapism more enjoyable. But I would say that the writing should reflect and be informed by reality rather than inspiring it. But then I don't look to any fiction for inspiration or life lessons. There's plenty of real-life examples out there to draw those from.
Ah, I see what you are saying and largely agree.

I can, however, see treating some fiction as a an example. Think of the idea that one can say with comedy what would not otherwise be allowable. I can even see taking something away from a TV show or comic or novel. It is entirely possible that "Beast Wars" was somebody's first exposure to the mind/body question ("Call of the Wild"), morality of war ("Law of the Jungle"), free will v/s determinism (much of S2), sanctity of life ("Transmutate"), or revenge/justice as a motive ("Nemesis" part 1).

And, for the most part, BW did handle tough topic well. ("Equal Measures" being a notable exception.)

It was not the bad guys who wanted to kill Transmutate. And, the older I get, the more I think it might have been better to have done so. (I am still not sure either way though.) On the other hand, I was not constantly thinking back and asking "what would Bob and Larry say" while fostering a potentially dangerous dog in '07. Along similar lines, principle and ideals are nice and all, but does the motive of a moral agent, (say Depthcharge) really have a practical impact on an outcome (Rampage being dead) if the motive (revenge) was dubious? But, there are also plenty of real life examples, complete with measurable results, to address that question.


What gets me is that people are saying they have carried those lessons since the series aired/ended. I can see a younger viewer, (say Prowl, Sparky or Onslaught), being wowed by the above topics being handled intelligently. But, I get the feeling that many of the "Dinobot made me a better person" crowd had done little reading or thinking on loyalty and free-will since 2000 or so.


Dom
-off to the Star Trek thread for a semi related question.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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andersonh1 wrote:It's a work of fiction. A fantasy series based on a toyline. I don't see that there's any life lessons to be taken from it. It's pure escapism and entertainment, nothing more. If Willis is learning lessons from Beast Wars, I think he needs to find another source of inspiration.
I'd very much disagree. Being a work of fiction based on a toyline doesn't mean it can't also have theme's and morals to be learned... Look at an episode like "Transmutate" and tell me there isn't supposed to be some underlying lesson to be learned there. There's plenty of that in BW and I think that's what Willis is getting at.
Dominic wrote:To clarify, I meant "since '01 or so".
I don't see any different... it's not accurate to say little if anything good came from BW when it did a lot of good.
Sparky, you are the only person I talk to regularly, (online or in real-time), who liked the IDW stuff.
It was "The Gathering" I liked. "The Ascending" and the Sourcebooks on the other hand were pretty terrible.
But, attempts to revive BW tend to go badly. G1 has proven more resilient, and I am willing to be this has less to do with it being "first" than we give it credit for. Plenty of other toy-lines were first...and last.
Again, owing up to attempts to revive it falling far short of the original. And in terms of the Transformers franchise, G1 was first. That's the important issue here, not other toy-lines.
I was saying that BW, (the toys and especially the cartoon), raised a low bar to middling. Transfans were just dazzled by the the high side of mediocrity, but it was relatively (when compared to much of G1) high.
You're still essentially saying the bar set by BW is only about average, when I'd say it's actually higher than that, being an above average cartoon show.
Fair point. But, "spark induced changes" as well as power-gaming (though not necessarily mystical in nature) in terms of mode scanning came out of "Beast Wars".
Mode scanning? Meaning the method of getting a new form to transform into? G1 had method of scanning a vehicle form for a Transformer to transform into as well. That's not something that came from BW.
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Re: David Willis writes about BW

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Man, there's something wrong with me, I want to argue the point because Willis said it.

But beyond that, I loved the hell out of this show back in the day. It was damn good on it's own, and no crappy comics, misguided attempts to canonize McDonalds toys in profile books, fanfic, terrible club-exclusive stories, or mind-scarring furry fanart can really detract from it.

I may not be as into it as I used to be, but when I watch BW cartoons, I still enjoy 'em. Good enough for me.
Dominic wrote: too many people likely would have enjoyed it as....well a house-elf gang-bang.
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