The Oracle's Plan

[andersonh1]

Although the other Maximals didn't always see eye-to-eye with Optimus in BM, they still supported and followed him on the Oracle's mission. If having a receptive spark simply meant being open to the Oracle's ideas/concepts, then they should have all fit that criteria, but this is not the case. Also, given Megatron eventually gains access and clearly has the opposite intentions would clearly contradict this. The evidence in the show suggests there is something unique about their sparks.

Yeah, that's the conclusion I had come to since the diagnostic drone was able to interface, and it clearly didn't have sympathy with the Oracle's goals, or even free will. I was just musing out loud about the philosophical possibility.

I really can't see the download from the Oracle as being the cause of Primal's change in personally. Otherwise, if it had done that, why wouldn't the Oracle have just downloaded what it wanted him to do right away, rather than let him spend the first season trying to figure it out on his own and nearly destroy Cybertron? Seemed to me what the Oracle downloaded was just Primal's direct link to the Oracle/Matrix.

Because the Oracle was written as the usual stereotypical fictional deity; the type of 'god' that likes to baffle its poor followers with clues and visions rather than coming right out and saying 'do this and do that'.

[Onslaught Six]

That's the biggest problem I have with the belief that the G1 Transformers had DNA scanners prior to Beast Wars: Pretender technology. They were designed with the same kind of "hide as a native life form" design as the DNA scanners were invented to be. Why would the G1 Transformers invent this kind of technology, if they already had a similar and more efficient tech built into their alt scanners? That's why I like to subscribe to the theory that they DIDN'T have DNA scanners, back then, and that the scanners were actually developed as the ultimate logical progression of Pretender technology; it makes more sense to have them NOT have the scanners, build the Pretender technology first as a way to test the waters for the possibility, and then refine it into the scanners. Otherwise, it just makes the very presence of the Pretenders redundant and worthless.

The problem with this argument is that you're assuming this was produced in a logical, chronological fashion--and it wasn't. In fact, in BW we're given no indication of what happened in G1--just that *something* happened. BW's Vague G1 is closer to the cartoon than anything else, and the American cartoon continuity never *had* Pretenders--so it's entirely possible that in the BW universe, they 'didn't' have DNA scanners to begin with.

There's just no way to fudge in this kind of shit. It doesn't work. It's like trying to put the G2 comic after the G1 cartoon. The BW writers didn't account for certain things because they didn't know about them to begin with. I don't doubt that Bob 'n' Larry had no idea Pretenders existed when they wrote word one of BW Part One.

[Sparky Prime]

There are any number of ways the download could have changed Primal. The most basic is that in an uncertain time, (finding one's home planet wiped out), people become open to radical (and often foolish) ideas. Primal needed something to believe in.

At the time of the download though, Primal had no idea what was going on with Cybertron, having essentially just arrived. Doesn't seem likely the Oracle would give Primal something to believe in before he knows what's even going on with the planet.

The other possiblity, (that I tend to agree more with), is that the Oracle download was a kind of reprogramming, or at least added enough not programming to change what Primal was and how he thought.

I find that extremely unlikely as well. One of the theme's in Beast Machines was about free thought/individuality. Having the Oracle reprogram Primal, altering who he is and his thoughts, would completely undermine the free will of the Maximals efforts.

Because the Oracle was written as the usual stereotypical fictional deity; the type of 'god' that likes to baffle its poor followers with clues and visions rather than coming right out and saying 'do this and do that'.

It wasn't really a deity though, it was a super computer. And it did give Primal some straight answers, but not until season 2.

[Onslaught Six]

Are we really doing this? BM (if not BW) were the first steps towards what would become painfully obvious during Universe--Vector Sigma, the Oracle, the AllSpark, etc. are all one thing--Primus. BM is obviously trying pretty damn hard to get that across without doing so directly--if only because it's a children's cartoon, and as such, probably not a good idea for one of their characters to be talking to God all the time.

[Sparky Prime]

Are we really doing this? BM (if not BW) were the first steps towards what would become painfully obvious during Universe--Vector Sigma, the Oracle, the AllSpark, etc. are all one thing--Primus.

Universe actually explains the Oracle to be a creation of the Quintessons, designed to manipulate events in their favor. Beast Machines only calls it a super computer/shell program for Vector Sigma. Likewise, Vector Sigma is clearly established in various continuities to be a super computer. The Oracle/Vector Sigma might be able to tap directly into The Allspark/Matrix/Primus, but it they are still separate entities from Primus himself.

[Dominic]

But, the "Wreckers Part 4" story revealed that the Oracle was acting in accordance to Primus' plans the whole time. (Say what I might about Sipher and Troop, they delivered on that one.

I think what O6 is arguing is that Vector Sigma and the Oracle are manifestation or aspects of Primus. If you prefer Eastern philosophy, they are aspects of the same thing. If you prefer Greek mythology, (based on the term Oracle), then the Oracle or Vector Sigma would be mouth-pieces of Primus.

because it's a children's cartoon, and as such, probably not a good idea for one of their characters to be talking to God all the time.

Hardly a problem in "Cybertron" though.....

I find that extremely unlikely as well. One of the theme's in Beast Machines was about free thought/individuality. Having the Oracle reprogram Primal, altering who he is and his thoughts, would completely undermine the free will of the Maximals efforts.

It may have been a strategic reprogramming more than a tactical reprogramming. In other words, it gave Primal a directive to "make this happen", but left him open about how to do it. Primal could not be creative or free in his goals, but had all kinds of leeway in his methods.

At the time of the download though, Primal had no idea what was going on with Cybertron, having essentially just arrived. Doesn't seem likely the Oracle would give Primal something to believe in before he knows what's even going on with the planet.

I would assume getting shot down, shot at, and chased around a desolate planet would be a pretty rude shock though.

Either way, I am leaning towards "programmed goals with free means".

Dom
-wonders if the movies will get this kind of discussion later.

[Sparky Prime]

But, the "Wreckers Part 4" story revealed that the Oracle was acting in accordance to Primus' plans the whole time. (Say what I might about Sipher and Troop, they delivered on that one.

Of course it'd be in the unpublished, only released through the Collectors Club material... And talk about contrived storytelling. "The evil aliens were actually behind it the whole time, wait, just kidding, they just thought they were."

I think what O6 is arguing is that Vector Sigma and the Oracle are manifestation or aspects of Primus.

Which again I say isn't accurate. Like I said, it is clear the Oracle/Vector Sigma have access to the Allspark/Matrix/Primus, but they are still established to be something separate, and although Primus can in-turn control them, they are not a manifestation/aspect of Primus himself.

It may have been a strategic reprogramming more than a tactical reprogramming. In other words, it gave Primal a directive to "make this happen", but left him open about how to do it. Primal could not be creative or free in his goals, but had all kinds of leeway in his methods.

Doesn't matter what kind of reprogramming, if it reprogrammed him to affect his decisions in the slightest, it is still guilty of taking away his free will to some degree. And again, I can't see the Oracle doing this when free will is to be one of the themes of the show.

I would assume getting shot down, shot at, and chased around a desolate planet would be a pretty rude shock though.

And Primal still had no idea why any of that was happening, thus had no reason, yet, to need something to believe in.

[Mako Crab]

Are we really doing this? BM (if not BW) were the first steps towards what would become painfully obvious during Universe--Vector Sigma, the Oracle, the AllSpark, etc. are all one thing--Primus.

Universe actually explains the Oracle to be a creation of the Quintessons, designed to manipulate events in their favor.

That's why I don't pay attention to the Universe comics.

[Onslaught Six]

Of course it'd be in the unpublished, only released through the Collectors Club material... And talk about contrived storytelling. "The evil aliens were actually behind it the whole time, wait, just kidding, they just thought they were."

It's a case of rigamarole and constant retconning. People were pissy that the Oracle messed up their "perfect" mechanical Cybertron, so 3H said that those goofy aliens were controlling it the whole time. And nobody liked *that* explanation because it's 'stupid' so the new club retconned *that.*

Which again I say isn't accurate. Like I said, it is clear the Oracle/Vector Sigma have access to the Allspark/Matrix/Primus, but they are still established to be something separate, and although Primus can in-turn control them, they are not a manifestation/aspect of Primus himself.

Perhaps at the time of BM's writing, they weren't specifically, but such a concept was widely believed to be accurate during ArmEnerTron. (This belief has sorta dulled since the Movies, since now the fiction is shifting back away from Primus, but give it two or three years and he'll be back again.)

[Dominic]

I really hope O6 is wrong about that. I really do. The over-use of Primus and Unicron is one of the worst things to happen to the franchise. (In some ways, I dislike them more than I dislike even Skids and Mudflap.)

Damn this country for getting more superstitious in the 90s. Damn the "X-Files". Damn cringing peasants who persist into the 21st Century. Damn childish tendencies towards "magic" in our culture.

(Okay, sorry about that. I blame evil spirits.)

Which again I say isn't accurate. Like I said, it is clear the Oracle/Vector Sigma have access to the Allspark/Matrix/Primus, but they are still established to be something separate, and although Primus can in-turn control them, they are not a manifestation/aspect of Primus himself.

I tend to think that the original intent with the Oracle, (and retroactively Vector Sigma), was the Greek model you describe. But, the idea was later retconned in during "Universe" and the UT.

Doesn't matter what kind of reprogramming, if it reprogrammed him to affect his decisions in the slightest, it is still guilty of taking away his free will to some degree. And again, I can't see the Oracle doing this when free will is to be one of the themes of the show.

The subversion of free-will was also a theme in "Beast Machines" though. And, nobody (at any point in the franchise) ever accussed Primus/Oracle/whatever of being over concerned with the well-being of TFs as moral ends unto themselves. If the Oracle is going to be operationally fine with Megatron committing genocide and effectively destroying millions of years of TF civilization, would it really be squeamish about "nudging" one 'bot in the "right" direction?

It's a case of rigamarole and constant retconning. People were pissy that the Oracle messed up their "perfect" mechanical Cybertron, so 3H said that those goofy aliens were controlling it the whole time. And nobody liked *that* explanation because it's 'stupid' so the new club retconned *that.*

Post-hoc fixes are a common problem. (And, failure to learn from the past is becoming more common as well.)

Sipher and Troop took the 4th part of what would have been an aimless and endless story and brought it to a resolution. Yeah, they undid the stupid "fix" Hallit came up with to pander to fans who did not like "Beast Machines". That was likely as much a shot at Hallit as it was a "fix". But, it brought things to as clean an ending as they could have been.

But, I see, and agree with, Sparky's general point. (Never thought I would say that. At this moment, Sparky's very soul is being re-written to "fix" this problem and restore balance.) Hallit had a "no, this is what really happened" reveal, then Sipher and Troop followed it with a "no actually, this is what it really was" reveal that just served to convolute the whole damned thing even more.

Both were, ultimately, changes for the sake of pandering. This is as self-indulgent as writers deciding to "change" a long-standing status-quo just for the hell of it. The return of Jim Hammond during Byrne's run on "Avengers" is another example of this. (I have tremendous respect for Byrne and the Marvel of that time, but I have never thought this story was a good idea.) Somebody, (likely Byrne, maybe Thomas), wanted to bring back Jim Hammond while keeping the Vision in place...and we got a stupidly back-written explanation that served no purpose beyond bring back Jim Hammond and reading like a bad fanfic.

Then, years later, somebody (Busiek I think), decided to "fix the fix"....and wrote an even worse fan-fic, (only it was official!), story revealing that both the stupid Byrne reboot and the thing it undid were correct.

Dixon is guilty of this with the Stephanie Brown/Spoiler fix.

Dom
-of course, better writing and editing in the first place would remove much of the temptation to "fix" things.