The Oracle's Plan

"What? Transformers made from animals instead of vehicles and stuff? Doesn't sound so great, throw it to Kenner division, maybe they can make a quick buck or something."
Beast Wars, Machine Wars, Beast Machines... seeing a pattern? Coming soon: "Wars Wars"
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Sparky Prime
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by Sparky Prime »

Onslaught Six wrote:Perhaps at the time of BM's writing, they weren't specifically, but such a concept was widely believed to be accurate during ArmEnerTron. (This belief has sorta dulled since the Movies, since now the fiction is shifting back away from Primus, but give it two or three years and he'll be back again.)
I never got that impression during ArmEnerTron. Really, there is no evidence to support that notion.
Dominic wrote:The subversion of free-will was also a theme in "Beast Machines" though.
Yes, on the Vehicons side. The Maximals, the 'good guys' here, are supposed to be above that. What message is it sending if their leader had has his free will corrupted?
And, nobody (at any point in the franchise) ever accussed Primus/Oracle/whatever of being over concerned with the well-being of TFs as moral ends unto themselves. If the Oracle is going to be operationally fine with Megatron committing genocide and effectively destroying millions of years of TF civilization, would it really be squeamish about "nudging" one 'bot in the "right" direction?
What reason would anyone have to accuse Primus or the Oracle? Their involvement with the Transformers actions is limited for a reason. And the Oracle was not letting Megatron commit genocide, nor was that really Megatron's goal. His plan was to merge every spark with his own, not to destroy them. And as we saw, even once merged, they could be separated again. And obviously, the Oracle recruited the Maximals on its behalf to fight Megatron and in its own goals to reformat Cybertron itself.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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The theme of the show itself was free will or the subversion of free will. But, it was not faction specific. Megatron specifically had to give his generals free will, (and not always to his advantage). Thrust, and later Stryka and Obsidian, chose to be a Vehicon when push came to shove. (When Obsidian and Stryka went back to Megatron, he was far from begin legally in charge of Cybertron.) In the case of Primal, the Oracle would have nudged him in the direction it wanted him to go.


Again, nobody accused the Oracle of being overly concerned with individuals. There would be no reason to accuse the Oracle of such a thing, as it clearly was not very concerned.

Megatron yanked the sparks out of a planet full of TFs, intended to absorb said sparks and to completely remake the culture. That is a pretty respectable stab at genocide. (Yes, there would be colonies of TFs "out there", but they would not necessarily be enough to rebuild or otherwise constitute the culture perpetuating itself.) Even if you do accept the idea that yanking the sparks out and absorbing them was a form of killing, (and the show is never too clear on how that would have worked), it would likely have been pretty horrible for the guys getting their sparks yanked. Did the Oracle care much about this?

Did it seem to care how those guys would have felt about having their planet green-i-fied? Heck no. One thing that the 3H comics got right was that guys coming home after a long trip would have been in for a really nasty shock. If the Oracle is willing to uproot so many lives, why would it flinch about reprogramming Primal with a forced epihphany?


Dom
no, really, imagine coming back to Cybertron after that...
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Sparky Prime
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Dominic wrote:The theme of the show itself was free will or the subversion of free will. But, it was not faction specific.
No, this theme is extremely faction specific with the Maximals taking the moral high-ground and the Vehicons of course being the ones to subvert the free will of others.
Megatron specifically had to give his generals free will, (and not always to his advantage).
Yes, but in giving Thrust, Tankor and Jetstorm free will, he took away the free will of Waspinator, Rhinox and Silverbolt.
Thrust, and later Stryka and Obsidian, chose to be a Vehicon when push came to shove. (When Obsidian and Stryka went back to Megatron, he was far from begin legally in charge of Cybertron.) In the case of Primal, the Oracle would have nudged him in the direction it wanted him to go.
Again, Thrust was a suppression of Waspinator, who never really had a choice himself. As for Stryka and Obsidian, they did work with the Maximals when they believed Megatron was dead. They claimed they worked for Megatron because they believed him to be Cybertron.
Again, nobody accused the Oracle of being overly concerned with individuals. There would be no reason to accuse the Oracle of such a thing, as it clearly was not very concerned.
Again, why would anyone accuse the Oracle of anything? There wasn't any reason for that to come up in the cartoon. And I would disagree that it wasn't very concerned with individuals. Clearly, it favored the Maximals side and in Primal and Megatron final fight, it gave Optimus extra support rather than Megatron who had taken away Primal's link to it at that point.
Megatron yanked the sparks out of a planet full of TFs, intended to absorb said sparks and to completely remake the culture. That is a pretty respectable stab at genocide.
Your still missing the point that those sparks still existed (on some level) and could be separated from Megatron spark, as happened on two occasions. It's not quite the same thing as genocide as those sparks are still essentially alive.
Did the Oracle care much about this?
Again, the Oracle did enlist the Maximals to fight on its behalf and gave them support.
Did it seem to care how those guys would have felt about having their planet green-i-fied? Heck no. One thing that the 3H comics got right was that guys coming home after a long trip would have been in for a really nasty shock. If the Oracle is willing to uproot so many lives, why would it flinch about reprogramming Primal with a forced epihphany?
The reformatting of Cybertron has been called an 'evolutionary leap' for Cybertron. Evolution really is not a matter of choice and is far from the same thing as forcing someone to have an "epiphany" in order to direct their decisions.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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When I ask about the Oracle caring about the TFs, I am asking if it looks like the Oracle considered the impact of its plans, (including the evolutionary step), would have on the TFs alive at that moment.

Evolution tends to be more appealing in hindsight after all.

Again, Thrust was a suppression of Waspinator, who never really had a choice himself. As for Stryka and Obsidian, they did work with the Maximals when they believed Megatron was dead. They claimed they worked for Megatron because they believed him to be Cybertron.
Waspinator seemed pretty happy to be Thrust though. And, I am pretty sure that Tankor and Jetstorm had a measure of consent from Rhinox and Silverbolt as well. Stryke and Obsidian had to eventually make a decison about who to serve, as neither Megatron nor Primal were legally in charge.


Primal's will was definitely suberted, if only by his own choices. He was the one who slavishly followed the Oracle, even after it was corrupted. And, he did not take well to it being "shut off" from him in late season 1.


Dom
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Sparky Prime wrote:]
Yes, but in giving Thrust, Tankor and Jetstorm free will, he took away the free will of Waspinator, Rhinox and Silverbolt.
Correct. And also, the free will Megatron granted was an illusion of the real thing. "Mercenary Pursuits" showed that Tankorr was hardwired with programming that prevented him from attacking his master. In that same episode Megatron simply erased Tankorr's memories of the past day to get him back on his side. And again in "End of the Line" we see that all along Tankorr was never truly free from Megatron's grip despite thinking he had fooled his master. There is no such thing as free will among the Vehicons.

I'm of the opinion that the Oracle didn't reprogram Optimus Primal. If it were going to do that, then it likely wouldn't have allowed him to make so many mistakes or come to the wrong conclusions about what it wanted. Remember, at one point Primal was intent on eradicating everything technological on the planet; something the Oracle didn't want. Free will means that Primal had to come to realize his own mistakes and zealotry and not have the answers forced on him.
by Dominic » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:49 pm
When I ask about the Oracle caring about the TFs, I am asking if it looks like the Oracle considered the impact of its plans, (including the evolutionary step), would have on the TFs alive at that moment.
The Oracle was staving off planetary death. It had been driven to the brink where whatever natural elements remained in the planet were all but extinguished. In a mode of self preservation, I'm sure the TFs were secondary to achieving its goals. And if they don't like it- oh well.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

Post by Dominic »

On the other hand, is the Oracle a pefect god/thingy?

And if they don't like it- oh well.
Exactly. The Oracle may have had good reasons, (self-preservation), but bugger all to the TFs involved.

Dom
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Dominic wrote: Exactly. The Oracle may have had good reasons, (self-preservation), but bugger all to the TFs involved.

Dom
Damn right. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Dominic wrote:When I ask about the Oracle caring about the TFs, I am asking if it looks like the Oracle considered the impact of its plans, (including the evolutionary step), would have on the TFs alive at that moment.

Evolution tends to be more appealing in hindsight after all.
I really don't see the difference. Certainly an evolutionary step forward would be better than letting everyone become one with a megalomaniac?
Waspinator seemed pretty happy to be Thrust though.
When he wasn't Megatron 'whipping boy' and getting blown up as often perhaps. This changed for him in season 2, particularly when Obsidian and Stryka arrived on the scene.
And, I am pretty sure that Tankor and Jetstorm had a measure of consent from Rhinox and Silverbolt as well.
I have no idea how you can think that. Rhinox was shown to resent both Primal and Megatron after becoming Tankor. And Silverbolt swore he'd have vengeance on Megatron for turning him into Jetstorm. There is no way they consented to becoming Vehicons.
Stryke and Obsidian had to eventually make a decison about who to serve, as neither Megatron nor Primal were legally in charge.
Legality had nothing to do with it. They simply served 'Cybertron', and Megatron for what ever reason, they considered to *be* Cybertron.
Primal's will was definitely suberted, if only by his own choices. He was the one who slavishly followed the Oracle, even after it was corrupted. And, he did not take well to it being "shut off" from him in late season 1.
Well that I'd have to agree with. But I attribute it to bad writing.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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Yes, but in giving Thrust, Tankor and Jetstorm free will, he took away the free will of Waspinator, Rhinox and Silverbolt.
Well, yeah. But, his generals. (the ones he would to spend time on about), had free well. And, it was said somewhere (I think mid season one, during that 3 parter), that the generals were actually the same guys, just tweaked. The idea was that Megatron brought out different aspects of their personality.

For example, Tankor's embracing of the Vehicon plank would have been an out-growth of Rhinox's pacifism. Silverbot said, (not long after being restored), that he liked being Jetstorm. Waspinator was perfectly happy as Thrust.

The restrictions Megatron placed on them were more physical. Tankor, (in "Mercenary Pursuits") was capable of wanting to hurt Megatron based on a decision. Thrust had to think about his loyalties during that 3 parter. Stryka and Obsidian were able to make decisions to the point of going back and forth.

Tankor, (during the end of season 1) was even able to set Megatron up and directly lie to him in an attempt to convince Megatron to slit his own throat.

The fail-safe shown in ""Mercenary Pursuits", (and one could argue again at the end of seaoon 1 was physcial. Tankor did not sieze up until he movied to physically attack Megaton. And, even then, Megatron had ceiling mounted and free-floating restraints on hand.

The seizure mechanism did not hinder Tankor's will in the sense of restricting his thoughts. It hindered his ability to physically act on those thoughts, not unlike a leash does with a rambunctious dog. There is a really nasty dog around the corner from me. He does not listen to his owner at all. But, the owner has a firm grip on the leash. The dog can dream of ripping me to shreds, (free will), but he cannot actually do anything, (practical ability).

Again, why would anyone accuse the Oracle of anything?
YOu misunderstand. I mean that nobody ever said, "Wow, the Oracle really is nice and very concerned with the everyday transformer.
Your still missing the point that those sparks still existed (on some level) and could be separated from Megatron spark, as happened on two occasions. It's not quite the same thing as genocide as those sparks are still essentially alive.
Genocide is the wiping out of a culture as much as of a population. Megatron keeping them prison would have done that. And, if I recall, he was trying to set himself up as a new Oracle, which looked to be based on a Eastern dynamic of cyclical death and life, effectively making a return to the source a "death".
Evolution really is not a matter of choice and is far from the same thing as forcing someone to have an "epiphany" in order to direct their decisions.
The Oracle presumably wanted the change. Evolution is pretty rough for those living through it. The Oracle's plan had a place for Megatron has well, meaning the Oracle was pretty okay with what happened to the planet and its inhabitants under Megatron.
Rhinox was shown to resent both Primal and Megatron after becoming Tankor.
Remember why he resented Megatron though. (Megatron was not techno enough.)
Legality had nothing to do with it. They simply served 'Cybertron', and Megatron for what ever reason, they considered to *be* Cybertron.
They served who was in charge. Megatron was in charge. If Stryka and Obsidian were alive, if off-screen, during G1, they would have been Decepticons until season 3. Then, they would have been Autobots and later Maximals. Had Megatron tried a conventional take-over, they would have fought against him. But, when they were revived after the virus knocked them out, Megatron was in charge. How that happened was less important than the fact he was at all.

This is the same idea as somebody who happens to live in a country where the goverment turns over, (through election or revolution). They work for who they work for. Low enough level guys can usually survive the change-over, so long as they do their jobs and keep their noses clean. The idea is to serve the institution, not the man/mech.


Dom
-this idea also turned up during the "Energon" comic and cartoon.
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Re: The Oracle's Plan

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You forgot the part where Megatron wiped Tankorr's memories. If that's not tampering with someone's thoughts they do what you want them to do, then I don't know what is.
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