Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

The originals... ok, not exactly, but the original named "The TransFormers" anyway. Take THAT, Diaclone!
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by Dominic »

Never been done that I know of. Usually, the teams are presented as bound together for whatever reason.

In some cases, as with the Predacons, it works well enough as everybody gets along while at work. In other cases, such as the Seacons, it works less well.

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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by Rampage01 »

That also brings up the question of just how close the merge team actually get when they merge. Is it like some kind of crazy mind meld where they all become one and the same, or more like a phone conference where they're all connected but still seperate entities? If it was the latter it'd be pretty easy to kick someone out and find a replacement. If it was the former, that sort of thing seems like it would be rather difficult to just send someone away when you've shared minds and know everything there is to know about each other.
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by JediTricks »

Swindle is what brought this to mind, he's a con man, a greedy salesman, you guys are talking about how loyal he would be to the 'Cons if the money came from the 'Bots. That wouldn't mesh well with Onslaught and most of the rest of the team's Decepticon leanings, which could cause a rift worth kicking him out. If they had a group mind while merged this could prove impossible, but if they're more like Voltron Lions, it could work. And of course, that also begs the question, what happens to them when one member is killed?
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by Onslaught Six »

Presumably, they can't form Bruticus anymore.

You've gotta wonder what kind of situation would lend to that, though--any threat that's powerful enough to outright kill one of them, they'd probably have formed Bruticus for anyway, and all indications that we've seen so far is that a gestalt can't really be killed as such--he can only be blasted apart into his individual components.

Part of me thinks that Swindle is at least partially loyal to the Combaticons and the Combaticons alone--who themselves sometimes do feel like an entirely seperate faction, merely allied to the Decepticons for, as someone said, convenience's sake. I'm also sure that Swindle--being a Combaticon--probably enjoys shooting at and killing things every so often, and he's not likely to get those kind of opportunities with the Autobots. Thus, it becomes not a theoretical situation of, "What would the Combaticons do if Swindle left?" and more, "Would the Autobots accept Swindle in the first place?"

One thought I had is that, if Swindle 'did' leave, they could easily replace him with one of the Stunticons or the Seacons or any other Scramble City team member who was nearby--but then that both brings in two questions:

1) What's that mean for the combined Bruticus mind? It's that eternal question of if the gestalt is a combination of all aspects of the individuals, or its own seperate entity, and how much control the individuals have over the gestalt. I personally like to imagine it as a similar situation to Bruce Banner and The Hulk--the gestalt is its own distinct personality seperate from the others, and may even have its own goals and agenda...if the gestalts were smart enough on their own.

2) Is there any real fundamental difference between Bruticus, Menasor, Piranacon, Abominus, or Devastator? They're all really big, stupid, and can smash shit up pretty good. If the Decepticons were to lose Bruticus, is there anything saying Menasor couldn't do his job just as well?
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by 138 Scourge »

JediTricks wrote:For whatever reason, reading the responses here, the only thing I felt compelled to ask is, do merge teams ever kick someone off the team and bring in a different guy who better fits their philosophy?
That would drive me nuts during the old G1 cartoon, and is probably the coolest thing about the Scramble City show.

I generally assume that the group's put together before the application of the combiner technology, so they're already used to working together well. Admittedly, this only works if you assume that the combiner thing's added to a TF, and not a part of the robot from the beginning. Some sources say that's how it is, but every combiner team's orgin episode ever says otherwise.

But yeah, if they need a particular combination of five robots to make the combiner, then someone like, say, Swindle would be able to get away with anything. "Yeah, Megatron, I sold your fusion cannon. And your ship. And Laserbeak. But hey, watcha gonna do, you still need Bruticus, right?"

EDIT: Whoops, I missed the next page. Anyhow. Yeah, if one of the members being taken out would screw over the combiner, the weakest member would probaby have a huge price on his head. Guys like Swindle (I assume) and First Aid would be screwed. As for what could take 'em out that they wouldn't have merged for? Sniper shot in the head, something like that. The Seacons would be safe if they lose the one member, of course. Yay them.

As for the differences between the different gestalts...well, Menasor could probably do some things as well as Bruticus, but everything I've read indicates that Bruticus is way more effective than Menasor. Chalk it up to a more military mindset, or, in the case of Predaking or Piranacon, who also work well as merged forms, a pack instinct (I guess "school" in Piranacon's case). That would be interesting, though, to see, say, Wildrider integrated into Bruticus. Or what would happen if Blades joined up with the Arielbots...
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by Dominic »

I recall Bruticus' source-book entry saying that all 5 of the Combaticons had an appreciation for war, if not precisely the same one. Bruticus himself was competent, if not brilliant.

Based on an old entry for Predaking, I assume that the merge-team's combined mind looks something like a Ven diagram. The more over-lap there is between the different parts, the better off the team is. In the case of the Predacons, you have 5 circles that overlap considerably. In the case of the Stunticons, (if only by some presentations and source-book entries), you would probably have something that looked like an Olympic logo.

Of course, the temperment of the individual parts would also matter. Computron's parts never fully integrated mentally, but they were always civil, leading to a combined robot that stood around thinking about every little thing from 5 different perspectives. He was likely to make the right choice, but it would take time.


While Swindle switching sides is unlikely, as the Autobots would not take him, other combiner bits might. (Really, who could not see one of the Stunticons switching sides, just to get away from Motormaster?) And, it is entirely possible for a team member to be killed before the team merges. Even putting aside accidental deaths, or even murder in the case of a Decepticon, it is possible that one could get killed in the early stages of the battle.

The only official examples of this are in G2, where several Predacons and one of the Aerialbots die. But, the question of what happens to the surviving members of the teams is never addressed.

The only time an incomplete merge-team is shown moving around is in the G1 episode, "The Ultimate Weapon". (Devestator is shown to be dormant in "The Core", when Hook is operating seperately.) In "The Ultimate Weapon", Defensor is shown to be physically, if not mentally diminished by First-Aid's absence. He seems aware of FA being missing, and able to think about it. Of course, the cartoon also portrayed the Stunticons as tightly knit.


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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by onslaught86 »

For whatever reason, reading the responses here, the only thing I felt compelled to ask is, do merge teams ever kick someone off the team and bring in a different guy who better fits their philosophy?
There's a number of interesting and semi-conflicting pieces of information on exactly what a gestalt mind is. Some bios treat them as conscious individual entities, others as simply all the members working together individually. Best place to go for this is the techspec bios themselves.

Devastator: "Thinking and winning do not mix"

"Awesome and terrifying, this Decepticon is a bizarre combination of six Constructicons: Scrapper, Scavenger, Bonecrusher, Hook, Long Haul, and Mixmaster. He is pure brutality as his sole purpose is to crush all in his path. His mind is a melding together of his six parts, but he is limited by their competing thoughts."


So Devastator has his own mind formed by the six individuals, but the individual minds limit his ability to think for himself.

Defensor: "As long as one innocent being is threatened, none are truly free."

"Views humans as if they were his own children -- will expend his last drop of fuel to protect them. Seeks human friendship, but humans fear his hulking, mechanical form."


So Defensor is very much his own man, Int stat of 7, no indication of conflict between members despite Blades' violent nature.

Computron: "Complete data analysis is essential for the synthesis of successful strategy." (Bet that expanded a few kids' vocabularies).

"He always makes the right choice... but takes several minutes to make it, since he first completely analyzes input from the 5 Technobots who comprise him."

Again, Computron appears to be his own entity, but he chooses to use the full mental capacity of the five components for better perspective, which weakens his quick-thinking abilities.

Superion: "To live is to fight, to die is to stop." Morbid for an Autobot.

"A fierce and frightful fighting machine. Suppresses thought of the five Aerialbots that comprise him, directs his thinking to one purpose: destruction of Decepticons. Cold, aloof...Difficult for him to adapt to new situations or be innovative due to limited mental functions."


Again, he's an individual, and a strong-willed one at that. Superion's a character that really hasn't had much exploration over the years. Seems his suppressing the thoughts of his components is what limits his brain power.

Predaking: "Destroy first, ask questions later."

"The closest thing to a perfect fighting machine that the Decepticons have. As a warrior he has no equal; as a weapon he has no restraints. His actions result from seemingly savage, animal instinct."


So Predaking's run on instinct rather than actual thought process, perhaps some sort of basic mental programming that all TFs have. More useful for the Decepticon cause, since their super warriors don't really need to be able to write award-winning poetry.

Piranacon: "Underwater, no-one can hear you scream."

"A monolitic menace. The diabolical combination of the five Seacons who comprise him. Master at undersea warfare. Few Autobots can outdistance him or escape his evil clutches. Destroys everything in his path with ghoulish glee. A troublemaker and malcontent. Rarely follows orders. Fellow Decepticons are unable to control him."


Int 7 here, fairly unique among the Decepticon gestalts. The Seacons clearly mesh well, though less so in terms of being an obedient cog in the Decepticon war machine. Interesting example, especially the note about him loving the destruction he causes, that's quite different from DEVASTATOR SMASH.

Menasor: "Leave no Autobot uncrushed."

"A clanking, crushing terror that destroys all in his path -- the ulimate Decepticon weapon if he wasn't so confused by the opposing thoughts of the 5 Stunticons who comprise him. (Motormaster is loathed by the other four.)"


Menasor clearly doesn't have the strength of mind Superion does, or Motormaster is just that much more of a prick than Silverbolt. The clanking note's an odd one, perhaps indicating Predaking and Piranacon improved on the original engineering process.

Monstructor's bio contains no notes whatsoever on his personality, though he does have Int 5.
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by Dominic »

Intersting that you left out Bruticus. The idea with him is that all 5 Combaticons have an appreciation for some part of warfare, making Bruticus a good soldier.

The conflicting sources are problematic. For example, in "Ultimate Weapon", Defensor is not show to be mentally changed at all by First Aid being AWOL. This supports the idea that Defensor, if not other merge teams, has his own mind and brain independent of the other 5. He is simply borrowing their bodies. (Even if he is a mental composite, Blade's violent nature is always focused on deserving targets. He is not known for brutalizing his comrades or bystanders, though they may find him to be unsettling. So there is not necessarily a problem with blades being part of Defensor.)

My Ven diagram idea, with the combined bot's mind consisting of the more common traits the team members share, is based larger on old source book entries, especially Predaking and Menasor. I know Dreamwave seemed to use that model as well.

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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by 138 Scourge »

I wondered, when I first saw that episode, if Defensor was gonna flip out without First Aid's more pacifistic nature to hold Blade's crazy in check. I may, however, have been reading too many "Hulk" comics around that time.
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Re: Sunstreaker & Sideswipe Question

Post by CrossRook »

Dominic wrote: My Ven diagram idea, with the combined bot's mind consisting of the more common traits the team members share, is based larger on old source book entries, especially Predaking and Menasor. I know Dreamwave seemed to use that model as well.

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I never cared for the Seperate personality bit. Or scramble city, in theory. In practice it looks awesome, but the rapid mind-mergers and disconnections have to be taking a toll. So I think that they're really incompatible with the other special teams, and the combined form is really, as Dom said, an overlap of the individuals. It simpler than the other theories, imo.

As for why Bruticus is so effective, well it's that his mind merger is similar to that of the autobots. Each member brings something good to the gestalt rather than what they have in common. So he has Onslaught's tactics, Brawl's fury, Swindle's resourcefulness, etc.
Last edited by CrossRook on Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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